Intrusive thoughts DD

[LavateraRose]

Lord above I am out of my depth with DD who is late 11, soon to be 12.
She is having negative intrusive thoughts and I have no clue about how to help her.
She is repeatedly having thoughts that I am fat and ugly and a most horrible mother. She tells me this whilst trembling, crying her heart out, and begging me for forgiveness for having such ''terrible" thoughts about me, all the while telling me that she truly thinks I'm beautiful, not at all fat, and a lovely mother. She gets beyond distressed by these thoughts that I'm fat, ugly and a bad mum, to the point that I worry about her because she goes white with fear and upset.
She is also having continuous thoughts that she did bad things to her friends that she didn't do, and that she said mean things to her friends that she didn't say. The most random things, like for example crying because she thinks she deliberately stuck her foot out to trip a friend over on purpose to deliberately make them fall over and hurt themselves, when in fact all she did was walk past them and didn't trip them up at all. Then she'll torment herself for hours saying that she doesn't know if she did actually trip them up on purpose or not because her thoughts keep telling her she did, so therefore they must be true, even though she didn't, her brain keeps telling her she did, then she gets distressed again and round and round it goes.
She is endlessly crying to me asking "Am I a bad person? Am I a bad person? Am I am I am I?!? I need to know if I'm bad or good!!!!".
I do manage to calm her down with physical comfort and calm rationalisation, she cheers up a bit, then hours later it's all back again.
She is exhausted by these thoughts and I'm watching her get drained and exhausted by it all.
Selfishly, I am absolutely drained and exhausted by it too.
The most straightforward of tasks are getting constantly delayed by hour long diversions whilst I try to console her distress. The amount of time all this attention and comfort she's requiring due to these intrusive thoughts is blocking me from simple daily chores such as making dinner, tidying up, bedtime routines, and it's also blocking me from giving attention to my DS 13.
Interspersed with the crying distress and emotional confessions of non stop intrusive thoughts, she is having episodes multiple times a day of shouting, shreaking, wailing meltdowns about the most insignificant things.
DS is finding it all really difficult to live with as she routinely starts screaming at him for things like eating loudly. To my mind he's just eating normally. To her mind he's eating deliberately loudly like a wild animal (he's not though). Or she screams excessively at him if he walks across the room and momentarily walks in front of the TV when she's watching it.
Her behaviour is all consuming. It is stopping me from giving much needed time and attention to my DS.
Daily bouts of her screaming at me "I HATE YOU I REALLY REALLY HATE YOU", for what I do not know, then an hour later repenting and apologising and beating herself up for being "a bad person" and constantly asking me repeatedly if I still love her. I reasure her thst of course I still love her, I tell her my love for her never ever changes, but this gives her little reassurance.
When I ask her what I did to make her shout she hates me, she doesn't even know.
I can't actually cope with her behaving like this anymore. We've been living like this for months on end, a year probably, and she's getting worse.
She's compulsively handwashing to "wash all my worries away". Her hands are red sore.
GP said get support from school because CAMHS is a 3 year wait. School said go back to GP. GP repeated the advice to go back to school. School have now set her up with seeing a weekly wellbeing practitioner at school who sounds pretty unhelpful from what DD tells me, and she makes suggestions to DD that makes things worse not better. She really doesn't sound skilled in advising DD on these thoughts and behaviours.
Bedtime is taking HOURS every night to get her calm enough to settle. I've recently caught her hitting her own head hard in upset to 'punish' herself for having 'bad' thoughts.
DD has had anxiety for years.
I don't understand why. She's had the most loving, stable, secure, joyful childhood. I have loved her unconditionally and have told her I love her every day of her life. I am a devoted mother, my whole life is dedicated to looking after her the absolute best I can and to give her a lovely, happy and emotionally secure life.
Why has she turned out like this? Why is she an anxious wreck? Nothing has happened in her life to cause this.
I am now at the point where I can feel myself starting to go a bit numb towards her. On a daily basis she is hurting my feelings, taking up every shred of my emotional energy, stopping me from having time to do anything else and she is draining the life out of me with her emotional complexities.
How do I find the strength to carry on coping with this?

Mh issues may not have anything to do with how dedicated a parent is.
Is there another parent involved?
Refer ds to gp if he is suffering from the dynamic.
Can you afford private psychologist?call young minds helpline

I’m sorry you’re having such a hard time of things. 3 years wait is unacceptable for this level of problem. Could you afford a private psychiatrist? There are a huge range of things it could be. A thorough assessment with a psychiatrist is what she needs next, not some well-meaning but ill-equipped “wellbeing advisor”. And these things just happen, it’s not your fault.

OCD often starts in childhood.
Join OCD UK support and advice.

https://www.ocduk.org/

This book is also great:

Break Free from OCD
Dr Fiona Challacombe

It’s a distressing illness but can be overcome with CBT. Try not to get sucked in the rituals and reassurance as it doesn’t help. The book is great for understanding this.

I think you need an urgent referral to a psychologist. She sounds so tormented.

But it might not be OCD. For example my bipolar disorder sometimes presents like this. A qualified psychiatrist is the only one who should be diagnosing her.

I think you need to push for an urgent Camhs appointment, she can’t wait 3 years 🤦‍♀️

I’d also want to get her bloods checked to make sure there’s nothing physical causing these issues.

But as that’s 3 years away the OP could join OCD UK and read the book in the meantime. There are definite OCD issues described and these could be tackled whilst waiting for a diagnosis.

If you don’t already know about PANS PANDAS it’s worth reading up on it.

Does she take asthma medication? Montelukast (Singulair) has known mental health side effects.

Oh gosh I really feel for you and completely understand how you must be feeling.

I have a DS17 who also has anxiety and intrusive thoughts / OCD. He's actually on medication now to help but we had to pay for a private psychiatrist because the CAHMS waiting list was too long. He also sees a clinical psychologist too, again we have chosen to go private. Do you have scope to do that?

We suspect he's ND also but he is refusing assessment. Any thoughts of that with your daughter?

I'll be honest I have found it all quite difficult to navigate and have just started on some anti depressants myself just to help me deal with everything whist the therapy and medication hopefully starts to work.

I know it can be frowned on but I've found ChatGPT a help too just in terms of how to deal with different aspects of the OCD for example.

I'm so sorry OP.
This sounds like OCD.
Intrusive thoughts cause distress, to alleviate the distress she has the compulsion to confess or to seek reassurance.

Look up OCD UK , NOCD, .

Bi polar is extremely rare in a younger child.Op go have a look at the intrusive thoughts list you can google it and reassure your daughter that thoughts like these are perfectly normal for many people. It sounds like a stress reaction from her so finding out what has changed is your first port of call.
Keep reassuring her that it’s just a wee phase and do not let your worries and anxiety transfer to her.

Oh my goodness poor you and your daughter, this sounds really stressful. Please go back to GP - they absolutely should not be putting this on the school! It is a psychiatric issue that needs urgent evaluation! Ask to speak to another practitioner at your surgery. Not ok that they are just fobbing this off. Blood tests at a bare minimum, then go from there. Do not take no for an answer!

Yes there is another parent, my DH, her DF. But he works ridiculously long hours so is barely here and he is emotionally unavailable. Always has been. He mentally checks out as soon as he can. If I talk to him about all this he will either walk out of the room and start doing something else, or he'll get angry and raise his voice at me and start yelling about how terrible it all is, or he'll crack open a beer and down it in one, or he'll get his phone out and start scrolling whilst I'm telling him about DD. He tries to cuddle her and when she pushes him off and scolds him to go away, he reacts in a childlike tantrum and starts having a go at her for rejecting him.
He's a nightmare TBH and I actually find it easier to not involve him because he's nowhere to be seen in terms of support. He is 100% emotionally incompetent and 100% emotionally immature.
He cooks, shops, cleans, drives the DC to stuff they need to get to, etc. But he is emotionally void.

My relative is a psychiatric nurse in a and e.
It sounds like your DC needs urgent advice, I'm not sure if it's considered an emergency (but in a similar scenario albeit with an older teen, they were assessed by a and e Psych team and admitted as a voluntary patient.
It was really distressing seeing them in the psychiatric wing (secure) of the hospital but it set the ball rolling for further treatment.

You could go back to the GP and let them know that you have tried the school's wellbeing practitioner but it has not helped and you feel your DD now needs more specialist support. Be very frank about the handwashing/OCD traits and the daily impact on you and your DS.
Talk to school and see they can refer to CAMHS themselves. My school can refer to a triage hub who can either open a child to CAMHS or signpost to other local support. Yes, there's a long wait for specialist services but the sooner you get on that list, the less time you'll wait overall.
You could refer yourself to Early Help and Prevention through your local council. They can complete an assessment which would look at both your DD's and DS's needs and identify what support is available locally, and then pull in the agencies who can help. There is often wellbeing support available through that channel that isn't advertised or available universally.
I hate advising this but push, push and keep pushing. Be THAT parent. It really shouldn't have to be this way but making noise keeps your case active and reminds professionals that your need is not only current but also escalating.

This sounds very similar to my ds. His symptoms began around age 6 and he was diagnosed with OCD alongside severe anxiety at age 8, he then received an Autism diagnosis at age 11. He’s 16 now.

His OCD is centred around germaphobia, contamination and cleanliness and his intrusive thoughts relate to the handwashing and toileting routines he must complete to prevent himself or people he loves becoming unwell or dying. (He can spend 3+hour long sessions toileting and showering to compete his rituals).

You have my total sympathy OP, it’s horrendous to watch your child suffer and to deal with the effect it has on yourself and your whole family. We have some periods of ‘better’ days but my gosh it’s rough! I feel broken. When you mentioned your daughter hitting herself in the head, yep we have that, and the self deprecation too - he’s stupid, useless etc.

Camhs helped us, I know they seem to have a bad rep but apart from one person we saw, I have nothing but appreciation and thanks towards my son’s doctor and key worker there.
I have heard the waiting lists are insane but a friend of mine had contact with them regarding her son and that was only a few weeks after she’d been to the GP so I’d press for a referral and hope initial contact would be made soon insisting on the gravity of the situation.

Of course, it may not be OCD but I immediately thought of my son when reading your post so I reckon it could well be worth researching and seeing what you think. The CBT my son has had revolved around proving the thoughts incorrect and finding the logic. Also a lot of exposure therapy but of course that’s more relevant to my ds with the germs etc

Could anything be happening to her at school? Could she be being bullied? Has someone made the comments about you to her? Does she regularly spend time somewhere else that she is unhappy, afterschool club, extra curricular activities, family members house? Have you checked any devices she has for anything harmful?

I know exactly how you feel and it’s a very hard path to walk.

My DD was exactly the same. Took a good year of therapy to get on top of it. OCD intrusive thoughts are hard for them to deal with. Mine thought she might stab me with a knife. We had when she was smaller she’d come to me crying because she really wanted to tell me I’m fat. I had to sit in the therapy as she didn’t want to go alone lol that’s fun hearing all the negative thoughts about yourself even though I do absolutely everything for her and she has a great life. She’s. One out all happy and I’d want to run away lol. But it’s important they know thoughts are just thoughts. It doesn’t make you bad. Therapy helps but find one that deals with ocd intrusive thoughts. Now when she gets into a spiral she’ll say is this right or is it just my intrusive thoughts. Might take a day to get over but it’s better than before.

Sounds like OCD. My DD is now 23, she's been diagnosed since she was 16, was housebound for 6 years but looking back she was having symptoms at the same age as OP's DD - it sounds like a very clear case to me, but whatever it is, OP you will have to make it your mission to get her treated. CAMHS do not like expensive things, my DD was sent away as "cured" 2/3 times by CAMHS, and the psychiatrists there are often unable to even begin treatment for complex conditions. I definitely second/third all the recommendations for OCD Uk also OCD Action, these organisations saved both our lives literally, and eventually I got DD specialist treatment under the NHS at one of the national OCD centres.

If you dont want to think about OCD at the moment, again someone up thread mentioned Young Minds - use their parents helpline. This will be a long job OP, get onto it now. Oh and of course, your "D"H might not be involved in the cure but he's definitely been involved in the cause; a parent like that can trigger OCD no wonder your kids are struggling.

This might be totally the wrong thing for a child but if that was me as an adult I would want anti anxiety meds for the worst flair ups. I had them when I had a diagnosis of a serious illness and they took the edge off when I was spiraling. It sounds so awful for her ( and for you) poor little lamb. I hope it gets better soon

Just want to say thank you to everyone who is replying.
I can't answer them right now as I'm upset. But I'm reading through each reply. Thank you.❤

Sorry just come back on to add about a private diagnosis - there are few specialist OCD psychiatrists that can diagnose online and whose recommendations will be accepted by NHS for referral to specialist services; there's a waiting list even for a private diagnosis but honestly you are talking less than £500 (not assuming everyone has that but just so as the OP has an idea) and that will get you the referral you need; you don't have to continue treatment with them they will advise how to approach the GP. The OCD charities can advise where to find a good psychiatrist but this guy is the OG; professor Emetrius at the Maudsley in London and NHS adviser:

www.veale.co.uk

My brother’s son had intrusive thoughts. The GP suspected OCD and recommended CBT. He also prescribed Sertraline. They booked him for a course of CBT. The Sertraline and the CBT worked absolute wonders. He still has OCD but knows how to live with it.

I am so sorry you are going through this and your poor daughter sounds so distressed . I am also shocked to hear that CAHM has such a very long waiting list . Totally useless to you . You need help right away . What is so sickening is that we are all now encouraged to " look after your mental health" and told to reach out for help but if this is what is happening I can only guess that people will suffer enormously. This is something people really should be marching in the streets about . I feel so sorry that I never realised what some parents are going through . 3 years - it's appalling. 💐

You need £400 to see a child psychiatrist sooner than 2029.

OCD is manageable with meds and CBT, both of which NHS supply promptly after a psych recommendation.

If you possibly can find the £400 do that OP.

My heart aches for your child and also for you. It is NOTHING to do with your parenting or you as a person.

They need professional help asap. It sounds to me like the beginnings of bipolar but at least OCD and I suspect an SSRI will help in the immediate term. But maybe other meds - this is not your fault at all, some people are just wired like this and once they have the right help are able to be themselves and cope with and enjoy life. Speaking from experience here. There’s not much worse than untreated anxiety - the fear is unbearable.