AIBU to expect input into my teen's airport travel plans?

[AustraliaPondering]

Long time contributor but NC as very specific.

AIBU to think that this is overstepping and somewhat concerning. I’ll try and be brief.

Gist is emotionally abusive ex. His parents are taking DC 14 away. DC and ex don’t have direct contact (DCs choice). AIBU to think Grandparents should have run return travel plans past me at least, rather than making plans and then they will tell me soon when not so busy?

Full version.

Thanks, in part, to MN and me posting in AIBU around things my exH was doing I have slowly realised the emotional, psychological and financial abuse that was happening.

Good friends who know him well, think he may fit criteria as a communal narcissist, which does seem to fit - lovely to everyone (and talks to everyone about his ‘good deeds’) but very different in private. Would harm me and DC (14) with rages and verbal abuse over very small things. Never in the presence of others). Has left us both quite traumatised.

I am divorcing him. We now live separately.

DC ceased contact around 9 months ago as things got very heated. Their relationship has always been tricky. He has invalidated them, berated them about lots of things and in the last year or so of living together pre separation would barely interact other than to give instructions, lecture or share something about himself. There would be long lectures about DCs ‘wrongdoing’, that would escalate and get physical.

I did my best to challenge this, including involving Social Services when things got physical. He didn’t change so hence divorce.

DC has since disclosed things from when they were younger that I didn’t know. But there have been some significant episodes of pretty traumatising things.

DC is currently only in indirect contact with ex. DCs choice.

So DC has a good relationship with paternal grandparents but they live abroad. They are funding a trip out there for DC in the summer which is very generous of them and DC is looking forward to it.

To be clear, they know nothing about the abuse. They have bought into (I think) his narrative which is that he has been emotionally and physically abused by me. I have reacted at times and I have not been perfect and I hold some responsibility for the things that went wrong, but having looked at it from every angle and lots of soul searching I don’t agree that this is correct.

But this is what they believe. They also believe his story (I think) that I have caused the rupture in the relationship and that, as he puts it, ‘I have stolen his child.’ This is categorically untrue. 100%. It was our DCs choice and still is and I am following advice regarding that.

She (grandmother) is a brilliant woman. She is kind and loving and calm. But, she has never had children, uses shame as a tool to put boundaries in and doesn’t know what DC has been through with ex. He (Grandfather) is loving in his own way, but short tempered and very unempathic. I suspect he may also fit criteria for some communal narcissist traits/behaviours. He will be a little aware of ex’s personality as he raised him, but won’t know what we have experienced.

We live a 6 hour drive from the airport. Grandad is coming to collect DC from the door to take them (I think there is a fear I might sabotage the trip - I wouldn’t do that to DC as they really want to go and it’s an amazing experience for them). They are flying back alone.

I have just asked what their (Grandparents) thoughts are around travelling back from the airport and have been told it’s been sorted and I’ll be informed.

Now in my mind that means;

• some kind of driver/chaperone
• involvement of ex (which is fine IF DC is ok with that and there is a safety plan - but that can’t be robust unless the risks are known)
• UK based relative brining them back (fine with me - but DC might want me to pick them up and I’d happily do it).

My AIBU is;

AIBU To think that these travel plans should have been run by me? I feel quite disrespected to be told that it’s all sorted and I’ll be told about the plans soon.

I get a lot of invalidation and criticism from ex so it’s helpful to know objective views.

I get it, they have been led to believe that I am manipulative and I have done XYZ and because they don’t know what they don’t know. They are possibly guarding against his version of me messing things up. So I can see why they might not feel they can trust me to collaborate.

They will also, out of good intentions, want to reunite father and child, but that needs to be done with the child’s full consent and cooperation - which if it has, I haven’t been informed. DC is very strong willed and stubborn (and funny and clever and loving etc), and will vocalise if they don’t want something, but I’m not sure if they’d feel brave enough once out there and I’m not sure how they would cope with an ambush. Thoughts on this welcome as it’s a back of my head worry.

Thanks in advance if you have waded through and made any sense of that!!

As it’s so specific (I have changed details but still could be recognisable) I’ll not add much more.

Possibly a lone voice. I've not ready every post, but a lot and all of OP's. I think the trip sounds fine, not ideal, but you trust the GP and you know the countries involved so there is no real risk of abduction.

I would feel uneasy without the airport transfer details, but hopefully they will be forthcoming soon and certainly required before departure.

If you are available to meet the return flight, I'd have this in my back pocket, but you should know the details long before then.

Make sure DC has means to contact you. They presumably have a phone that can run on WIFI if a local SIM is difficult? Load up credit and a power pack (safely stowed for air travel) just in case.

DC is sensible, 14, and travelling with known and trusted GP. Hopefully the GP will read between the lines and get the measure of your ex from spending precious time with DC. I hope ex doesn't show up if this is against your DC's wishes.

It's lovely that DC wants to go. It's very positive that you are trying to maintain a relationship with GPs but honestly this just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

Why can't grandparents come visit? They could take her away for a few days in the UK maybe?

If you're determined to allow this trip you need to plan for contingencies:

1-Chances are your friend will have no legal right to remove DC from her relatives, even if DC doesn't want to stay with them, especially if one of those relatives is DC's own father. Or to keep DC with her if DC manages to get to her house. I'd daresay she certainly wouldn't have the right to put DC on a plane, assuming that questions are asked at the airport.

2-You need to have enough money (or the ability to borrow it IMMEDIATELY) for one round trip (for you) and a one-way fare (for DC) to get them safely home unless you have a credit card you can use. When I say 'immediately' I mean a friend or relative who has the ready cash to lend you or book the flights for you right away. And remember that last minute airfares are horrendously expensive. And be sure your own passport has at least 7 months left on it. Also, consider the time needed for any visa you may require.

4-Even though step-Gran is a lovely woman, she can be easily overruled by the grandfather and other relatives, especially by your Ex. And as a 'step', chances are she has no legal standing. And she's not going to be likely to spirit DC away to your friend's or put DC on a plane.

3- Even if DC is 'safe' with your friend or you are able to get there, you or your friend may be faced with DC's relatives refusing to hand over DC's passport. Be sure you know what needs to be done if that happens.

For me, that's just too many and far too complicated contingencies to allow a trip to a far distant place, let alone another country.

If you can't meet these contingencies, then you need to explain to DC that even if they want desperately to come home or to go to your friend's until departure day, they may well be stuck where they are for the duration.

OP, I am a very relaxed parent but this has my spider senses tingling. My only real life experience of child abduction very much involved grand parents being deceived by the father as to the true situation. I think we all have a bent to see our own children as honest and believe their version of events. 14 isn't really old enough to repatriate yourself if it all goes wrong. Have you spoken to GC about this personally?

Nah. Anyone removing a child from the legal jurisdiction needs a letter of authority from both parents or a court order. Ex can't 'do' this paperwork without your consent.

Tell the grandparents that you insist on details of the flights and travel arrangements otherwise you will not give your permission for travel.

A lot depends on the location of the holiday, the airport, the legal system of that country. But my Spidey senses are tingling...

OP, the more I think about this, the more concerned I am. If your ex walks into the GP house and takes your DC out for a special dinner they have no legal power to stop him unless you have paperwork in place to prevent it. They probably won't try. If your ex is very plausible I would be suspicious that he is more involved than you realise. Unless GC support you and your DC's version of events around the divorce, this sounds unwise.

Agreed. I wouldn’t let my dc go.

I am very confident they won’t abduct him.

I’m going to check ex isn’t going to be there. He lives here not there. I’m going to be clear that no contact unless DC has fully consented and a safety plan has been done.

You are so naive. Of course he will say he is not going.

how do you know the return flight is booked when they won’t tell you how the child is returning? How do you know that they won’t cancel the flight being prepared to lose the money as they have your child!

we can all see what’s going to happen but you just don’t seem to see it. What does it matter what they think of you you have to protect your child. And saying the child will stand up for themselves is just so so naive. They will be with a minimum of two narcissists they will easy be overwhelmed

dont let them go

Honestly. I think you are very naive. Letters can be forged. It is easy to say no he will not be there but he will be. It is easy to book a return flight and not use it. You don't know flight details or return dates. You don't even know if they are bring your child to their home country and not somewhere else. All you seem to care about is picking your child up in the airport.

Your DD sounds as though she's quite savvy and as you say won't shy away from speaking out if she doesn't agree with things, so surely she'd want to know ASAP the ins and outs of how and who she's returning home with before she goes and not in due course.

This - and tell them that you will withhold permission for them to travel - which you are entitled to do - unless they give you the information and official confirmation of the flight booking details.

Tbh, given the nature of the relationship, I would not be giving permission anyway. I’d get a PSO to ensure that they could not take DC overseas. If DC wants to go with them once they are 18, this is fine, but the tenor of this interaction and the ongoing issues with abusive ex would be setting off alarm bells.

I’d personally be applying for a Prohibited Steps Order tonight online.

100% this.

i would not send my child into this scenario. Let them see child in her home country.

Not a chance my child would be going on this holiday. You don’t know travel plans, the grandparents are siding with your ex, they think you have stolen the child from him. This has abduction written all over it

This. Why did you ever agree to it? If the dgps want to see their dgc they should travel here and take them on days out. Of course the df will appear even if dc thinks he won't. At best they'll be stuck on a holiday with a df they want to be nc with.

I think you are putting your desire not to create waves ahead of the safety of your child.

What she is told and what is reality may not be the same thing!

I think you're being very naive. Why are you trusting these people? Their loyalty is to their son, not to you. You already know he's been poisoning the narrative to them over the divorce. You have no idea what they really think. Im not saying they are bad people or want to harm DC, but their loyalty will be to their own son.

Has DC ever stayed with them before or been away with them? If not, why does it need to start right now 🤔 why can't they go away for a few days in the UK instead? Its really lovely you want to ensure that DC has a relationship with GPs, but this sounds so risky. If it goes wrong, it could be disastrous.

If you can't afford to fly out and rescue DC if it all goes tits up, that sounds incredibly risky. You're putting your trust in 3 people who you really do have no reason to trust. As a PP has said, your friend is not a legal guardian and will not be able to take DC away from their father if need be.

You have a duty to protect your DC. If they are afraid of their father turning up you will be powerless to protect them if you're not there. If he is a narc he's probably got his family dancing to his tune and believing that the sun shines out of his arse - they will not choose you over him. If the father has been abusive, that's even worse. You can't expect a 14 year old to stand up to 3 adults alone, at least one of whom is abusive!

You're basically sending DC off on holiday alone -no, it's actually worse than that as the people there are potentially abusive. There will be nobody there that DC can emotionally rely on, even if GPs do fulfil the basic everyday childcare tasks. What if the dad turns up and upsets DC? The GPs are unlikely to take DCs side or do anything to stop the father. Surely this is a massive risk, even if you think abduction isn't?

You can apply to court for a prohibited steps order online to prevent this going ahead and prevent your DC leaving the country without you(apply as an emergency). You will have to go to court for a hearing but you don't need a solicitor, you can take a volunteer Mackenzie Friend (court companion) with you.

Is your child a son or daughter?
It seems to have changed midthread? 😬

I'm also not sure why you wrote an AIBU but won't listen to anyone's comments.

Isn't that usually how it goes?!

The GPs are high profile. They will not want to risk their reputation. Ex lives here. If he is going then I’ll see him in the car when DC gets picked up. I just don’t think they would.

DC is really keen to go. It’s a really special trip and he loves his GPs.

I do have DC flight details. Just not the airport to home plan.

GM wouldn’t lie. I trust her to be honest. She’s very principled. She just believes my ex because I havent shared my experiences. I’ve purposely not involved them. She’s one of the most well adjusted adults in DCs family. I honestly think there is very little chance of abduction. I mean how often does that ever happen? They wouldn’t do that to DC either. They’d understand it was too big an upheaval.

I haven’t said. I’ve been vague.

I have listened. I’ve risk assessed re abduction which hadn’t even crossed my mind because surely that’s rare. Nevertheless I risk assessed and although the consequences would be dire, the chances are super low with everything I know. I know their family secrets. ALL of them and if they did it they would know I would take them down. But honestly, abduction isn’t the risk here.

It is helpful to know that it is out of order to not involve me in DC airport to home travel. I will also be very clear re boundaries around contact with ex and will give them enough information so they know ex isn’t telling the whole truth.

They have had holidays together. DC loves them. Their loyalty is to ex re divorce but they will put DC first. She will at least. She will be a steady ship.

DC is confident ex won’t be there.

I hope you're right op. You seem very confident that the dad won't be there and that dc will be returned. With this in mind, why are you worried about them getting home from a UK airport? That would be such a tiny thing compared to abduction and the trauma of unwanted contact with their dad.