Please tell me its OK to refer to someone as being "as black as the ace of spades".

[lucyellensmum]

Its not is it? Even if i was referring to my mother. Oh, i am so mortified.

Today i was chatting to someone about my mum who has a medical condition that means she has very dark skin. I said in the context of the conversation, when someone asked me if she was really that dark, "oh yes, she is as black as the ace of spades". Not thinking that there was a black girl in the car with us who i have only just met . I immediately realised what i had said and apologised straight away, trying to wriggle out of it by saying well she really is dark, darker tha you!! Not sure that would have helped. The young lass didnt seem offended at all and was happy and friendly with me for the rest of the day.

LEM kicks herself repeatedly up the backside. What a stupid thing to say I just hope she wasn't offended or upset by it.

I dont think its a racist thing to say, my DP disagreed though. I certainly didnt mean it in that way and am personally deeply offended by racist words and phrases.

i don't think it is ok no. but instant realising and apologising is good.

Well the ace of spades is black.

I think the actual term was or did become associated with racism, hence, it may be offensive now but waving the bloody Union flag is associated with the freakin' BNP and considered offensive in some quarters.

If the lady wasn't offended, think no more about it.

It's not okay. And tbh, suddenly realising the girl's in the car and then apologising somehow makes it a whole lot worse. I am sure she has heard worse though.

YOu weren't being racist though and the girl clearly knew that.

you are kidding right???

it has such pejorative and out dated overtones.

you didn;t mean it, but all the same

TBH, I don't see a problem with it. You were saying it as a way of describing something. You didn't upset her and I don't think you would have upset many people.

i agree duchess, but i didnt want to ignore it. She was a lovely girl too, i think she was possibly from abroad as she had a very strong accent, she lives here doing her PhD. So maybe she didn't pick up on any racism that might have been associated with such a comment. I was soooo embarrased though as i have been the victim of racist bullying at school because of my mum. Its my absolute pet hate in the whole wide world, and then i say something like that - has anyone got a slimy old salmon i can bash myself around the head with.

Nothing is racist unless it is said with intent to cause offence.

Thats not what you did, so I shouldn't class that as being racist.

You can be really offensive without meaning to.

Obviously the op tried to make amends and probably the person concerned realised and wasn't offended, but it's important to be aware that you can be massively discriminatory by just not paying attention.

Would you have retracted it if you had said 'white as the driven snow' instead?
The retraction is worse as you obviously connected the expression with racism.

It was a descriptive term imo.

I have a real dislike of 'black as sin' though which I hear quite often.

I am of mixed race and would take no offence by it if that helps?

or 'flat as a witches tit'

While there was a flat chested girl in the car

Who also happened to practice black/white [delete as appropriate] magic

Was it because you said she was "black" or that you used the term "ace of spades" that was the problem?

I don't think using a colour as a descriptor of someone is a problem, I used to live in Jamaica where people had a whole range of skin tones from white as, well, snow, to black as, well, what can I use to describe very dark black (you see, I'm scared of saying the wrong thing!). Anyway, the Jamaicans have no problem using skin colour as a descriptive, eg someone who was very dark would be nicknamed "blacker", those who were mixed were called "brown skin" etc. It was very relaxed and made life a lot easier.

But is "ace of spades" a racist term? If so I can imagine why you might have been embarrassed but it sounds like the girl in the car realised you weren't being racist so I wouldn't worry about it.

Ha ha! Is it the witching hour?

I think from what Lulumama has written, the expression is considered racist now "pejorative and out dated overtones". So even if it was not meant that way originally, through useage, it has become so - hence, it's offensive.

I tried to Google it to see where it's origins lay but can't find owt yet.

I don't think this is racist LEM u were describing a colour not saying i in a racist manner!

Although I must say my neighbour took offence when someone said this about him and then said he would prefer black as night! Personally couldnt see why unless he finds spades offensive LOL.

I was really embarrassed when my Aunt whos well 'black as the ace of spades' picked up a Golliwog of all things and told my DS look this'll remind u of me when I'm not there with a big grin on her face I didnt know whether to laugh or not! I would never use those hideous things as a comparison myself now that'd be offensive.

We all say things that some might/might not find offensive - you are not the only one. I do it all the time! Please don't worry : )

On the plus side: you will not be saying it again for a while!

Well, there is the use of Spade to describe a black man. It's an American phrase. You were uncomfortable using it so go with that feeling. That would be my opinion. It doesn't sound quite right to me but I can't say why exactly.

when i was growing up that saying was used to describe somebody who had got very dirty.

when did it become offensive?how on earth is it offensive?

Well, techincally, descriptively, there are only a few ethnic groups that could be decsribed that way - the one that c0mes to mind is haitian people... but if you meant to be descriptive not perjorative then most peiople would not take offecne

i wouldnt worry about it, probably no big deal..

you are allowed to celebrate "black" music, but we sure as hell aint allowed to call anything "white music" (ie Radio 1 Extra)

Ummm, as you were referring to your mother, who isn't black, then can it actually be deemed a racist comment????????

Either way, you weren't being offensive so I'd say no harm done, don't worry about it.

nfk- Its not just a spade its the ace of spades