Please tell me its OK to refer to someone as being "as black as the ace of spades".

[lucyellensmum]

Its not is it? Even if i was referring to my mother. Oh, i am so mortified.

Today i was chatting to someone about my mum who has a medical condition that means she has very dark skin. I said in the context of the conversation, when someone asked me if she was really that dark, "oh yes, she is as black as the ace of spades". Not thinking that there was a black girl in the car with us who i have only just met . I immediately realised what i had said and apologised straight away, trying to wriggle out of it by saying well she really is dark, darker tha you!! Not sure that would have helped. The young lass didnt seem offended at all and was happy and friendly with me for the rest of the day.

LEM kicks herself repeatedly up the backside. What a stupid thing to say I just hope she wasn't offended or upset by it.

I dont think its a racist thing to say, my DP disagreed though. I certainly didnt mean it in that way and am personally deeply offended by racist words and phrases.

no, its not OK. But if the girl in the car is anything like me, she probably just laughed it off & put it down to ignorance.

Have to share this with you

I was reading the paper today and DD2 was sitting on my lap pointing things out "bus" "dog" then there was a picture of Robert Mugabe and she pointed and said "chocolate man" I couldn't even start to explain she's only 2, I just hope she doesn't point to someone in the street and say it.

PPut of the mouths of babes eh?

You're were not being racist. You were not even refering to a black person. I understand why you tried to apologise, but that's the only offensive bit in it really.

It's as though you suddenly thought (which you did) "oh dear there is a black girl next to me" when it would be nicer if you had completely forgotten about her color.

Not your fault though because we are constantly being reminded that black people are different in order to ensure we treat them the same.

i think i agree that i probably shouldnt have said anything, it was just a knee jerk reaction to apologise. I made the apology in a jokey way and to be honest i think it all went totally over her head as she was happy and smiley with me all day. Will certainly teach me to think before i open my trap in future. Im always putting both feet in

why do people think it has negative overtones?
i mentioned someone was "really black" the other day and someone sitting nearby jumped down my thoat as she thought i was referring to the person as being stereotypically black (whatever that means) and not every black person was a "rapper".
i was of course referring to the tone of his skin.

you appologied, dont worry about it.

PC-ness has gone mad in this country. One can hardly speak for fear of offending. It is ridiculous.
You are not a racist and you apologised, so think no more about it.

I feel a bit like father ted on the episode where he had to keep saying "im not a racist" and kept making things worse for himself.

I think you are right though, im not sure she even noticed, until i apologised and most black people would not be offended.

Be interesting to hear a point of view from black mumsnetters.

see above, although i can't speak for most black people.

Ok, another Black Mnetter here.

I would not find it offensive but I would react the same as sandy4.

And yes, I am sure she has heard a lot worse.

Don't worry about it now. What's done is done. You probably won't say it again though

It's not the worst thing you could say, and as others have said, the fact that you didn't say it with malicious intent counts for something. However, I think there are a couple of reasons why it's an unfortunate thing to say:

1. it's a phrase that's associated with a time (1970s/1980s) when casual racism was much more socially acceptable, and these connotations make a lot of people uncomfortable;
2. using a phrase like this at all reinforces that blackness is something remarkable, worthy of comment - you are unlikely to have said 'xxx was remarkably lily-white', because so far as you're concerned whiteness is not something to be remarked upon.

Agree with policywonk, especially the second point.

Not sure I agree about the second point policywonk.

My nephew is very very 'white' indeed. He's not albino but has incredibly fair/white hair, eyebrows, skin etc.

People do comment on it, not in a horrid way but because he is indeed 'remarkably lily-white'. I've known other similar examples.

Saying as black as the ace of spades is surely just trying to underline how dark her mum's skin is - not just a bit dark or a bit black but very black indeed.

The phrase, historically was used to describe a black person in a derogatory way, it's where the term 'spade' originates from.

But everyone at some point says things that could be considered offensive.

"using a phrase like this at all reinforces that blackness is something remarkable, worthy of comment - you are unlikely to have said 'xxx was remarkably lily-white', because so far as you're concerned whiteness is not something to be remarked upon."

i'd have to disagree with you there because if someone is extremely pale either naturally or through sickness as in the op's case no one would bat an eyelid if you described them as being "white as a ghost".

I'm quite pale and people comment on it. Could be something to do with the anaemia. I'd love to have olive skin.

and i'm guessing you don't consider them racist.
or do you?there could be a few tabloid headlines in it for you if you do.

only read op but i have said this before, infact i said it on here one day and was not pitchforked out of town, just a couple of faces.

only reason i said it is because my friends dh is from fiji and she described him to be like this before i even met him and it just kind of stuck.

The only person I have ever met who has been clearly racist is my gran. Mind you, she doesn't particularly like us either, so it might just be a general hatred for everyone.
Although she clearly thinks the sun shines out of my uncles arse.

As a black mumsnetter - if I was in the back of the car I might find it irritating rather than racist in the way that I find the term big black man irritating when used to describe a man who is simply tall or even just black!

I probably would have wondered whether your mum was actually as black as the ace of spades - which no one is really. Or you were just using the term to describe the fact that she looked like a 'person of colour' due to her medical condition even though she is caucasian.

Anyway living with a mum who has such an extreme and visible medical condition whether it is black skin, extreme psoriasis or whatever would I'm sure have made you very sensitive person to peoples unthinking comments. It was obviously just one of those funny blurt outs you do.

I was at a party for someone who is terminally ill the other week and announced to the room 'ooh I i'm knackered - I'm going to sleep the sleep of the dead tonight!' . Bloody hell. I have no idea were that came from - ive never used that phrase before - but I still cringe every time i think of it.

Thankyou so much for your replies Sandy and Poshpaws, i really appreciate it. I feel really sad and angry that you both feel that she would have heard worse

I actually think that racism is quite overt and commonplace at the moment and that makes me . I guess that is why i felt guilty about my comment which was totally innocent. As someone posted, when i describe my mum as "black" i really do mean she is black - but it still was not an OK thing to say imo and im mortified about it. It does look quite strange actually because she doesn't have any other "black" features. I have unfortunately come across racism in a lot of people, and i am as i really don't get it, i just don't.

And yes, you are right, it wont be a phrase i will be using again!! I don't think it is a case of being over PC either, as i don't want to offend ANYONE by stupid comments, regardless of colour.

halsmum, i think you are right actually, i think i was trying to say that she appeared black, rather than just referring to her colour. This is because she does get mistaken for a "black" person. It doesn't bother her at all. Oh apart from when she gets bawled at to go home or threatened with a knife for just being on the streets (this has actually happened in the past ) which is why i am probably sensitive about not wanting to offend.

LEM shakes her head as to why it matters what colour, race or religeon someone is

cringing for you too halsmum about your faux pas!! That is exactly the sort of thing i would do as there is a short circuit sometimes between my brain and my mouth.

Go hit girl
Agree with nkf
Have been called 'a spade' before ... so would have probably cringed a bit in the back of your car..however, i would instantly recognise your blunder so would have cringed for you too.
Ah think on it no more