Please tell me its OK to refer to someone as being "as black as the ace of spades".

[lucyellensmum]

Its not is it? Even if i was referring to my mother. Oh, i am so mortified.

Today i was chatting to someone about my mum who has a medical condition that means she has very dark skin. I said in the context of the conversation, when someone asked me if she was really that dark, "oh yes, she is as black as the ace of spades". Not thinking that there was a black girl in the car with us who i have only just met . I immediately realised what i had said and apologised straight away, trying to wriggle out of it by saying well she really is dark, darker tha you!! Not sure that would have helped. The young lass didnt seem offended at all and was happy and friendly with me for the rest of the day.

LEM kicks herself repeatedly up the backside. What a stupid thing to say I just hope she wasn't offended or upset by it.

I dont think its a racist thing to say, my DP disagreed though. I certainly didnt mean it in that way and am personally deeply offended by racist words and phrases.

Tactless? Oh yes. And what a hackneyed expression - "black as the ace of spades". It conjures up all sorts of images of beer-bellied seventies racists.

So I think you need a smack, LEM, not just for tactlessness and thoughtlessness but for using such a tired old cliche in the first place.

Hopefully expressing contrition will have got you off the hook.

Would you like to weild the salmon quatrro?

Actually funny thing happened to us last week, which your seventies racist comments reminded me of. Was out with my mum in town and a group of skinheads were walking very close to us at the back. Honest to god, proper skinheads with union jack t shirts on, tight jeans and Dr Martin boots. All guys about 40 who had obviously been drinking, BIG guys!.

I could feel my hackles rising and was ready to have to defend my mum, was actually a bit scared because i had DD with me. Anyway, the next thing i knew these guys were laughing and joking with us about a peculiar dog that we see. Making really cheeky comments etc, but calling my mum "my love" and "sweetheart"- Just goes to show that you shouldnt judge a book by its cliched cover . maybe they were in fancy dress!

My best friend is in a mixed marriage. She's white and he's black. During a trip to hospital, because she'd thrown her entire back out and couldn't move, she explained to the doctor, in front of her husband, that carrying her spade across the garden did the damage - cue laughter from all 3 of them !

My children never describe their friends as black, always as light brown or dark brown, or pink. I've always found the black/white thing a little odd in that context. So I would never describe someone as being really black (or euphemisms like back as the ace of spades - actually I've not heard that one before - I thought spade was a lesbian term!) but might say that someone was very dark skinned, for example my step-niece (3/4) Ghanaian was very dark skinned compared to her mum (1/2 Irish). I don't think this is problematic as I would also describe myself and my son as very pale skinned.

I do think that it is somehow easier to say really stupid things when one is being more conscious of being careful though.

No u werent racist but its amazing how many people have no idea how they sound - my mixed race friend actually had "I dont usually like black people but you're alright"

I'm black and I think it's fairly offensive. But I also think it's good that you apologised. I once heard my white MIL use the phrase 'nigger in the woodpile' and when my DH protested, she just shrugged and carried on talking, like her story was more important than the fact that she'd insulted me.

I really should have said something and regret not showing how offended I felt. If she'd apologised I'd have regarded it differently.

ITs a good range of replies, and the general consensus being LEM was an arse!! Fully accepted. And certainly not an OK thing to say. I don't actually have any black friends as such, as we live in a predominantly white area. But if she were a friend i probably wouldnt have been embarrased as she would have known what i meant by it as i am quite a jokey person. I have chinese friends and my DD has a lot of asian friends and i wouldn't have worried about this type of comment with them, because they know me. Saying that, ive got some fat friends too some of which i would call lard arse, some definately not. So i guess the thing is, when in doubt, say nothing .

I think its a terrible shame really.

god it hadn;t even occured to me this was a racist term .

I always thought 'black as the ace of spades' just meant dirty?!

umberella-exactly.

what does 'And what a hackneyed expression '
mean?

It's derogatory to someone living in Hackney Diva

I agree with you LEM - i also think casual racism is on the incline which does my head in. Don't know why either - but someone graffitied "Go home Paki c*nts" on a wall at the end of my street last week. I don't think it would annoy me so much, but most of them are from India, not Pakistan.

Diva, you mean what is the definition of hackneyed phrase? It means over-used, unoriginal, cliche etc

Btw LEM, I also meant to say earlier that's awful that you and your mum have been bullied because of her skin condition.

Sorry, I meant medical condition

It just highlights the stupidity of some people dryad. The media these days has a lot to answer for.

I don't know if this is right but I was told Paki is not, officially, offensive!

Explanation - Paki is the name of the country and 'stan' means 'land of'. Does that sound right to any one else?

I never knew the phrase "black as the ace of spades" was anything to do with skin colour! I thought it was used when someone is filthy! I thought the ace of spades was a playing card!!! I've said it to my (black) husband when he's come in filthy from gardening and I've said it to my (mixed race) kids when they've come in from making mud pies in the back garden. Perhaps I owe them an apology!

You really do learn something new every day. It just never in a million years would have occured to me to think it connected to skin colour.

Doodle - Calling someone from India a Paki is v offensive, so my Hindi colleague tells me.

Nooooo, sorry UD, I wasn't clear. If the person is from Pakistan, apparently it's OK to refer to them as being a Paki. I don't know if it is acceptable, hence why I'm asking on here.

I think that in the UK anyway the word "Paki" is too associated with bigotry to be neutral. I know in Australia it is used in a different way, and not considered offensive.

Why and under what circumstances would anyone use the term "Paki" though?

Unless they were trying to be offensive.

As I said earlier, LEM, don't worry about it anymore. It is like any other 'un-pc' term. Some people will get offended by it, others won't. The reason why I said that you won't use it again is because you were upset at having used it. Therefore, if you are upset at potentially offending anyone in the future, you won't use it.

As others have said, everyone makes these faux pas from time to time. I have done it in regards to religion, weight, etc

It sounds pretty bad, to be honest.

don't really see how the exact hue of a person's skin can be at all relevant in our society. Put the words "coloured" and "race" into this and you have my parents' mid 1950s cultural picture. (and my mother still can't see what's wrong with describing someone as "coloured". At least my father is honest in his racism)

As you apologised for offence that may have been caused, probably wasn't, then don't worry....