Welfarisation has made people utterly entitled and unable to take responsibility for themselves and their families.

[hagchic]

I grew up in a working class family. The values I was taught were that you stood on your own two feet and it was no one else's job to do what you could do for yourself.

If you were hurt, you were expected to get up and go and clean yourself up - and stop whining about it unless it was actually serious. If you were ill, you went to bed and if you were lucky some magic lucozade appeared.

If you were sad, then you were sad. If life was unfair then that was just how life was and you needed to deal with it.

You never ever sought charity or took benefits when you were able to work or put up with less. You lived to your own means, not to what you saw on TV or at school - and if you wanted that lifestyle it was up to you to get it.

Today everyone has the expectation that someone must help them, that they are obliged to help them - even before they have made any attempt to actually do the work of helping themselves. They expect luxuries like holidays, pets, new clothes and treats when they do nothing to earn this.

I think self sufficiency is a value that needs to return to our society.

They lose their jobs as their employers move their business and wealth abroad.

And yet you have decided by using such emotive language. True colours and all that.

why though, you’re 81! You’ve paid in your whole life. You can ease off now it’s not shameful

Do you believe this post though?

I do. I'm getting on in years myself and know many people who feel the same.
They've been brought up to pay their way.

For what it's worth, my daughter claims PIP - well that is to say we claim it for her because she's non verbal and has mobility problems - so I have no issue
with PIP for people in genuine need. My only point is that I know many elderly people who feel ashamed of having to rely on benefits. It's perfectly believable to me.

See, this is the issue. In societies where there is no welfare state two things happen:

• some people create their own work, usually scratching a living through buying, selling, cleaning car window at traffic lights etc
• others join the criminal classes, rob and steal, using increasingly violent means to do so.

The result is an economy where tax isn't paid and the middle classes living in fear in gated communities.

The fraud and error in the overall benefit system costs around £7bn. When combined with genuine claimant error and DWP errors and overpayments is something like £10bn. The amount of fraud and error specifically in the disability benefits system is less than 1% - that’s around £700m.

The official UK tax gap - the difference between the amount of tax that should theoretically be paid and the amount actually collected—is estimated at £47bn.

I’m not suggesting that either is fair or should be overlooked, but there is no proportionality. Whipping up a frenzy about benefits gets government the public support they need to reduce them, and presenting the vulnerable disabled people at the bottom of the pile as responsible for all the problems we face, while giving a free pass to tax avoidance, is the equivalent of ‘look over there’.

If the country is on the bones of its arse, then all forms of fraud should be cracked down on, not just benefits. And the problem with disability benefit reform is that there will always be those who can game the system - it’s not fraud proof and never will be. All that happens with each round of reform is that eligibility and qualification are tightened so that it makes it much more difficult for genuinely disabled people to qualify, and significant disability is screened out.

I don't believe an 81 year old would be on here

I do. At 81 you have more leisure time to scroll through social media for entertainment, Many 81 year olds are perfectly able to negotiate the interweb.
Not saying they're all here, like, but I don't see why it's unbelievable.

It's not all Voltarol, Horlicks and early bed beyond 80.

China, Thailand, and the Philippines all have social welfare. Incidentally China also has 96% home ownership. Quality of life there is significantly improving for most citizens. That fact probably helps explain rising life expectancy and significantly earlier retirement ages in that country.

It is also illegal in China for children under the age of 16 to be employed anywhere. Not to say it doesn't happen, but illegal labour practices occur in most countries, including the UK.

Also, why is it also always a race to the bottom in these discussions. Instead of saying "well at least we are better than x/y/z country", why don't we ask "why are we not as good as a/b/c country?"

Well if the Government themselves use AI to replace lots of admin type jobs, which they undoubtedly will and are, they will be saving a heap of money there for a start.

AI is going to revolutionise work and is still in its infancy. The Government and Civil Service is a perfect place to apply it with the huge amount of bureaucracy involved.

The savings in salaries from that can go towards implementing UBI.

It will be in big business' interest to bring it in too because otherwise you have a huge section of the population who can't buy the stuff they are producing.

And it will radically change society. For the better I think. Crime will be reduced leading to less money wasted on prisons, benefit fraud will be eradicated leading to huge savings there in investigating claims.

And the fact it's applied across the board saves a huge amount in processing claims. It's well known that Universal benefits are often cheaper than means testing with all the bureaucracy involved in applying the means test.

This idea is in no way new, I studied it in University 30 years ago but, as a PP said, it will be being seriously considered as a future option.
It's not as odd as some people might think.

Why, is there an age limit? Please let me know what it is in case I break any rules being here

I don't think there's a rule as such. Just ageist assumptions.

Charges for adult prescriptions were reintroduced in 1968. Children have always had free dentistry, so your memory that this was free for you is correct.

I agree we are often in a race to the bottom, and I find it depressing that those at the bottom of the heap are happy to fight so bitterly over the scraps they are given, but so few of them think to look up. However, I wasn't trying to argue that it's all ok because we're not as bad as China et al.

I was asking is that really how low people want us to sink? To emulate countries with such horrific abuses against human rights and children?

I think when it comes to comparing the UK with other countries that are better off, we have to remember we have issues unique to the UK that other European countries don't have. We're a tiny overpopulated island with little to offer on the world stage. We don't have massive reserves of oil to lean back on, or vast swathes of agricultural land to capitalise on. Our education system has been failing for decades, so we can't even offer global talent.

You have an insanely utopian view of AI.

Educate me then.

Out of work benefits are awarded though.

Well once we have replaced all the starter jobs will AI, then unemployment will get worse as noone will be able to gain experience and those with experience will be retiring. Also the mental health of the population will get worse as there is nothing for them to do and companies will close down as there aren't people with experience to do the jobs.

Once benefits are so high they can't be paid we will have to find another way and UBI could be that way.

And actually AI isn't only replacing starter jobs.
That's a limited view of what is actually happening and will happen going forward.

I think the difference now is that families won’t / don’t actually look after their own anymore . They do expect others to provide care / funds / housing.
My paternal grandmother lived with us until she died. Well we lived with her. How often does that happen now ?
Parents are throwing out their own children and sending them to the housing department to get social housing. There is a huge lack of personal responsibility.

Do you have any evidence to back this up, because everything I've read suggests the opposite: children are staying with their parents until well into adulthood, often remaining after they marry/have children of their own, because they can no longer afford a home of their own.

What evidence do you have that they’re staying at home for longer ?

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/families/bulletins/familiesandhouseholds/2025

I claim it because I am a wheelchair user and entitled to it.
It pays for my chair and other things that cost me more as a result of my disability. I cannot fathom why anyone would think that we (@bbcsounds) should not get it because we are high earners. I won’t be a high earner when I retire, or if my disability becomes too severe for me to carry on working.

it is not a means tested benefit

It would be interesting to see how many people would get off welfare if:

• Health & Mental health services could be accessed at an earlier stage and not when things can no longer be reversed/cured
• There was decent and affordable public transport systems everywhere up to a reasonable time so that people can actually get to work
• There was cheap/affordable daycare 24/7 so that those without family help can do all the random shifts that they get assigned instead of not being able to work due to a lack of childcare
• Jobs actually gave a living wage
• If housing was actually affordable so that you weren't trapped in places where there isn't work
• Benefits tapered off at a gradual rate instead of the cliff edges that currently happens

I agree we need all of this and more, but until we have substantial economic growth and enough jobs for everyone, nothing we do will work.

I don't know what the answer is, but I do know we've been trying to fix it through austerity and a series of welfare cuts since 2008. At some point, we need to accept that it is not working and try something new.

Definitely this.
Change is going to have to come some way or another.

Hopefully we can lead the way with this or a progressive European nation will show the way - whatever happens, I hope it won't be us trying to follow or emulate America.