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AIBU?

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Burnham has won. More turmoil?

761 replies

KatiePricesKnickers · Yesterday 05:51

Now Burnham has won, it will trigger a leadership contest, and if he wins, a new chancellor of the exchequer.

Surely this cannot be good for the country, or its finances?

YABU - Burnham is a true leader who will improve the UK for everyone and be a competent and respected leader.

YANBU - FFS, here we go again.

OP posts:
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ClarkeandNewman · Today 21:31

5MinuteArgument · Today 21:27

That's what progressiveness OUGHT to be and in fairness, at one time was.

But now it's become intolerant and out of touch. For instance, it's the progressive wing of the LP which advocates for trans rights and the expulsion of women members who oppose trans ideology. That's just one example.

Ordering people to think and behave in certain ways isn't progressive. That doesn't mean the word has changed its meaning.

I could say my hair is blue. It's clearly not. That doesn't mean blue is now brown.

DandelionFarmer · Today 21:36

ClarkeandNewman · Today 21:31

Ordering people to think and behave in certain ways isn't progressive. That doesn't mean the word has changed its meaning.

I could say my hair is blue. It's clearly not. That doesn't mean blue is now brown.

Over time words can change their meaning. ....woke and gay for example

5128gap · Today 21:40

DandelionFarmer · Today 20:58

OK.. so who actually are the progressive left?

Everyone on the left is progressive in accordance with the definition I gave, because that's what being left is. If you're not progressive your values won't align with the left.
However in terms of your definition, that is, believing people can change sex, I don't know. Individual left wing people have differing views on GI.

ClarkeandNewman · Today 21:46

DandelionFarmer · Today 21:36

Over time words can change their meaning. ....woke and gay for example

Concepts like progressiveness and fascism haven't changed. But I can see why some would be invested in trying to pretend that they have.

5MinuteArgument · Today 21:46

Anyway, I hope AB can make improvements to this country, get a grip on employment and immigration, help for business etc. If he doesn't, Reform will be waiting in the wings (probably scrapping it out with Restore!)

But the country is in dire need of good leadership.

DandelionFarmer · Today 21:49

5128gap · Today 20:05

I wondered if that's what you were thinking of.
Imo, it isn't. Because I don't believe it's possible to change sex, so trying to progress society towards an acceptance that you can would not be progress, because the destination is a mirage.
Others would disagree. However, the subset of left wing people who believe in GI do not define the progressive left, which has existed for centuries, concerning itself with social and economic reforms.

You are deflecting. There are many labour mps who "believed" that TWAW

5128gap · Today 21:51

DandelionFarmer · Today 21:36

Over time words can change their meaning. ....woke and gay for example

Yes, so the TRA keep telling us about 'woman'. I'd have thought you'd have been opposed to arbitrary and imposed changes to the meaning of words used to describe people.

5128gap · Today 21:55

DandelionFarmer · Today 21:49

You are deflecting. There are many labour mps who "believed" that TWAW

I have never kept track, so I don't have a list, but if you do, I'm not sure what you're asking me? I'm left wing and progressive. I don't believe people can change sex. I'm not alone in that.

DandelionFarmer · Today 21:56

ClarkeandNewman · Today 21:46

Concepts like progressiveness and fascism haven't changed. But I can see why some would be invested in trying to pretend that they have.

No these are terms the left throw around to make themselves look good and the right look bad.

ClarkeandNewman · Today 22:05

DandelionFarmer · Today 21:56

No these are terms the left throw around to make themselves look good and the right look bad.

Absolutely not. Wanting to change the meaning of terms like progressive, while apparently innocuous, actually demonstrates the danger that we're in from malign actors and from fascism. Look at how Starmer was directed away from left wing policies and persuaded to ape the right when talking about issues like immigration and benefits. To be progressive became to be zealous, to be "woke", to ignore the concerns of "real people". Starmer had to prove he was none of those things, weakening the left of politics and driving the Overton window ever rightwards. That is dangerous, wherever you sit on the political spectrum. Without genuine choice, societies are open to totalitarianism. It's a similar tactics to Trump's lies. Words, truth and concepts become meaningless.

5128gap · Today 22:27

ClarkeandNewman · Today 22:05

Absolutely not. Wanting to change the meaning of terms like progressive, while apparently innocuous, actually demonstrates the danger that we're in from malign actors and from fascism. Look at how Starmer was directed away from left wing policies and persuaded to ape the right when talking about issues like immigration and benefits. To be progressive became to be zealous, to be "woke", to ignore the concerns of "real people". Starmer had to prove he was none of those things, weakening the left of politics and driving the Overton window ever rightwards. That is dangerous, wherever you sit on the political spectrum. Without genuine choice, societies are open to totalitarianism. It's a similar tactics to Trump's lies. Words, truth and concepts become meaningless.

Absolutely. And given PP is obviously very concerned about the rise of trans rights activism, I'd have thought that really didn't need pointing out.
Language has been central to that debate. When 'gender' a term previously used interchangeably with sex, was suddenly given a new meaning of 'internal sense of self as a man or woman' and then used interchangeably with sex again. When woman stopped being a word used to describe an adult human female, and became a word for anyone who wanted to live in accordance with stereotypes of womanhood, it was constantly pointed out that language matters, and rightly so, because its crucial to our understanding of the world.
We can no more decide that fascist now means people on the left who try to shut down debate, and progressive now means people who believe humans can change sex than we can decide that woman now means adult human female plus some men.

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