To think benefits need to be cut to fund increased spending on defence

[Viviennemary]

This is absolutely necessary. Keir Starmer shouldnt have backed down the last time. But now with the current situation with Russia drastic steps need to be taken. We simply can't afford to sustain the current benefits bill with the armed forces so depleted. The money is needed to increase defence.

If any of you had the slightest idea how unprepared the UK is for literally any type of conflict you would not sleep well tonight. We are very, very, vulnerable.

No one is ever going to invade, we haven't anything to take. But they could cut our internet, our food, our gas and electricity.

only 1 attack submarine out of 7 is working. We don't have enough planes to fill one aircraft carrier let alone the two we own.

We only have five frigates, they don't all work and we had to retire 3 in the last year because we never booked yards to make new ones.

The men and women who keep us safe in our beds at night, whether you appreciate it or not, need and deserve the kit they need to keep us safe.

Does that justify funding it by taking from some of the most vulnerable in the country ?

I don’t sleep at night anyway.

I’ll pop it on my list of things to think about.

I’m not sure however, that depriving vulnerable families of the money they need to survive, so we can arm ourselves for a physical war we are unlikely to be in, is the right step.

Literally yes because as mentioned - without those people being a credible threat to the people who would do us harm - life will be one hell of a lot worse than living on Universal Credit.

Think rationing, of food and energy, limited martial law and the reduction of the country to a third world position politically and financially. We are in a very very precarious position.

The Defence Secretary asked for 28 Billion over five years. that was to keep things as they were - so - in a dire state. He got 14 billion which will mean actual cuts when we are already cut past the bone.

We cannot afford the welfare state we have built.

It's not about a stand up war, it never will be. Nobody will invade us we don't have anything to invade for, nothing.

And it's not about winning the war, it's about looking and being competent and prepared enough to put Russia off starting anything.

If we are not prepared, with all the things we need in order to defend the country, other countries will step in and remove us from the board, which is all they ever want anyway.

the UK not interfering, not defending the northern flank along with Norway, its just what Russia wants. They can do that by cutting us off from undersea comms and resources, from food, by interfering with civilian infrastructure.

Without all of that there is no country - so yes - it comes way way before benefits of any type.

Ahh, yes I see what you mean. To an extent this already happens. There are some people who are hospitalised (some in very bad conditions some have a mattress on the floor, bare rooms etc, there was a Panarama on one in Bury and Sky news have/ had a campaign about it) because it costs so much more to provide care in the community. It also passes the cost from the NHS to the LA.

Not something I would wish on any family.

If it makes it clearer then carers save the state millions in comparrison to the state providing care.

I know of a family that was asking for respite to be provided a certain way which they prefered. The social worker doing the assessment got the package through panel by working out how much it would be to provide the provision that the LA would give as standard to meet needs in comparrison (it was well over £1500 per night for 24 of nights a year plus daytime provision, they wanted a budget that was costed at around £5000).

Sorry, you’d advocate making vulnerable people more impoverished, so we can essentially look bigger and harder?

Not for me thank you.

I think bringing back workhouses is the answer. 🙄

I actually agree.

Surprised it hasn’t been suggested to be honest.

Oh get lost 😂😂

But, surely, that just increases his childcare bill, so he'll hardly be making any more?

I'm sorry I didn't make the rules about how and when one state decides to attack another one but it is a matter of fact that you prepare for war in order to keep the peace. Because sadly, states like Russia, wait and look out for those who are too weak to mount a credible response and then they pick on them. I could give you a list but I am sure you have heard of them.

Credible posturing is the way this works.

If Russia crashes the economy and brings in food rationing, how well off do you think the most vulnerable in society will be exactly?

Sorry I have this weird thing about people working for the money they receive. Money I sweat blood to create and then they get for nothing because they say they get a bit worried about going out the front door. Well my sympathy for that shit has dried up. If you don't work, you don't get any money. I don't care if it's sweeping the streets or doing star jumps all day. No work. No money.

You lost me at “workhouses,” to be honest.

I would be inclined to agree that various areas need investment, including defence, but picking on the weakest in society to do so is IMO indefensible.

Why is it a choice between welfare and defence? Why can't we reform MPs expenses?

You cannot have a welfare state if you do not have any money and if we are weak militarily we won't have any money, and so those on benefits will be in a much much worse position.

If we don't invest in the things that keep us in existence, it will be pretty hard to help people won't it?

Ah.

See I have a 9 year old who still shits himself and likes to eat mud.

Not sure how good at sweeping he’ll be later in life.

Not everyone can earn their keep, unfortunately. Thankfully there are plenty of us who can.

It is a complete mystery to me why pensioners are so despised on MN and as soon as benefits are mentioned, posters are always so keen to target pensions.
Pps will defend benefits claimants to the hilt, deny the system is open to abuse and resort to hyperbole pretty quickly if challenged.
Yet pensions are one of the few benefits which count towards the tax free allowance, so many pensioners pay tax, and, apart from JSA is the only benefit you have to contribute to before you are eligable to claim.
Yet still the insults fly. Bizarre.

Because the Defence budget is £46.2 billion and has fallen 22%

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8175/

And MPs cost £242 million per year, salary plus expenses - so thats 0.39% of the defence budget. In fact it would buy you two F35Bs (fighter jets)

https://www.parliament.uk/about/mps-and-lords/members/pay-mps/

It's a question of scale.

Of the welfare budget is

337 BILLION

eight times higher than defence

Yep.

Cuts can absolutely be made elsewhere to fund defence without targeting the vulnerable.

And? Clearly if you can't work - you can't work - but I sincerely hope he can do some sort of work later in life for his own self worth and adding value. I believe in the welfare state. I believe in helping those who need a safety net and support and those who cannot through genuine reasons not work.

I do not believe in giving people a free ride which is exactly what has happened - that is why claims have gone through the roof. we cannot afford it. We just don't have the money and we are very very vulnerable.

The entire MP salary and expenses is 0.39% of the defence budget. What would you reform exactly to magic up the 20 billion per year additional funding defence really needs?

How about a 6% cut of welfare across the board?

Yet you want the workhouses back?

Would you take the same view about cutting child benefit and the often eye watering childcare costs attracted on UC ? Or is this just aimed at the disabled ? How about forcing employers to pay a decent wage instead of awarding themselves huge bonuses while the tax payer picks up their wage bills ? Or landlords who charge outrageous rents just because they can, and increase them in line with UC increases every year ? How about collecting the some £47bn in unpaid taxes - the minister for defence was asking for £28bn. That covers it with some to spare.