AIBU to be surprised by how much some parents seem to use punishments?

[TheFairCat]

There have been a couple of threads recently about smacking and other types of discipline etc. The general consensus seems to be that smacking isn’t great but that without it parents have very little control over their children and don’t know how to ‘discipline’ them.

There also seems to be lot of talk about ‘consequences’ and banning devices, cancelling plans, taking toys away etc.

AIBU to be really surprised by this? I am by NO MEANS a ‘perfect’ parent (if such a thing exists) but generally my children just do what I ask them to do because I ask them. I have never even come close to smacking them and rarely if ever confiscate things (I might have taken things away if they were throwing them etc, but only briefly out of reach while I re-directed). Most of the time if I ask them to do something and they start complaining it’s enough just to give them ‘the look’. Similarly a raised eye-brow will often do the trick.

my eldest (10) is ND with some learning difficulties and parenting her is demanding in many, many ways but she does do as she’s asked most of the time. Both kids know what is expected and what behaviour is acceptable and for example, if my daughter is stroppy about doing something (tells me to go away, refuses to do it etc) I don’t generally have to ‘do’ anything. I just give it a bit of time and she will come and apologise and I’ll say something along the lines of ‘it’s OK to be frustrated, but it’s not OK to shout at me’ etc. and then she’ll do the thing I asked her to do and no more will be said about it. I guess some people might be shocked at how she’s spoken to me, but she will apologise of her own accord and will always be expected to do the thing I asked of her. I don’t know if maybe I just have low expectations/don’t ask for much? Basically both children know that we expect to be treated with kindness and respect and that they do what they are asked to (put away their dishes, put their clothes away, tidy up their mess, turn off their screens when asked, eat at the table etc.). I feel like they do those things because they don’t want us to be cross with them/want to please us? I guess I’m quite strict in that I have firm boundaries and definite ‘red lines’. I expect them to do things for themselves if they can, but they are allowed to express their feelings and emotions and I do listen.

They are currently 8 and 10. Am I in for a shock??

Sometimes I genuinely wonder how many families only achieve their outwardly performative parenting goals by using far worse punishment. Eg enforcing zero screentime is very tricky when kids are always whining they're bored. However if a mum starts screaming and shuts the child up in their room for 3 hours, then it's a very easy target to achieve. The same mum then goes around bragging how her children have no screens at all during the week and how that would make them into much better people.

I'm absolutely convinced there are many homes where children are punished, abused or neglected in order to reach "aspirational" parenting goals such as high grades, sporting or musical talent, no screentime or strict dietary requirements. This also includes using religion as a non-negotiable tool to impose certain behaviours.

I grew up with a friend who had a very health and house conscious mother. Think only home cooked meals, zero sugar, no junk food, spotless home, beds always made etc. Sounds amazing from the outside but the mum was horrifically abusive (I was there and witnessed quite a lot of it). She forced endless chores on her children and depriving them of all treats led to a serious binge-eating ED in my friend during her teens.

Ha! My Mum’s stare can still stop me in my tracks at 49….. Maybe I’m just a bit wet!

I have children who are now adult.

i can say that certainly for my teenagers and I would imagine for most teenagers there is a period where they willl absolutely do anything to deliberately piss you off, they care much more about pleasing their friends than pleasing you and good luck with the parenting at that point.

I think part of the problem is that if you only have one child, or two or more that are very similar you literally cannot see the other side of the coin. If your children are easily disciplined then it's impossible for you to understand what it's like for parents of children whose kids cannot give a flying fuck for the word 'no' and who laugh at boundary setting.

I had five. One (my autistic DD) was very biddable, hated anyone being cross with her and would try never to rock the boat. My younger two were a little bit 'keen' but generally more rational but the eldest and middle were practically feral and thought 'don't do that please' was more of a suggestion than a boundary. So I've had all sides of the coin and I know that sometimes punishment really does have to be more than for the more easily managed child.

I have had a similar experience, OP. There is nothing I ask them to do without a good reason, and when I explain the reason they understand it. (E.g. they might get hurt, it will take ages to clean, they might break it, etc.)

My second child is very different to my first, and was less keen to listen at a v young age, but by 4 or 5 was much the same.

I think i have maybe just got lucky, and it might not last!

Well , I never got DD to eat like a normal person and she probably never will . I just gave up on that one.

😂 my sweet summer child.

You sound like one of those parents who say"well, I just put my child to bed and they fell asleep on their own and rake up at 7:30am. it's easy. I don't understand why Mrs Jones is complaining of sleep deprivation, all she has to do is have a good sleep routine and baby will sleep peacefully".

Don't be such a poorly read person. Read a little bit about people's experiences and lives and you might begin to understand.

What I meant was when my 17 yo isn't in the same place as me.
I guess I could send him a photo of me 'giving him the look', but I don't think it would be effective.

We don't really either. Our kids aren't angels but they know when we get down to their level and tell them their behaviour isn't acceptable then it's time to stop. Most behaviour is avoidable and it's a case of making sure they're not overtired and overstimulated, have some agency over their life and their choices and understand the reasons for the rules that are in place.

If I had 2 children like my youngest, I too would feel quite smug about my parenting skills and the fact I just need to explain and give a look.....

However.....my eldest is a boundary pusher and you have to spell things out many times and she will still be a risk taker. Sometimes only the threat of a consequence will work. We still have a good relationship and she has turned out to be compliant mostly. She is now 20 and will help around the house and is always polite but boy did this outcome take a lot more parenting than our very easy second child.

Count yourself lucky you have had easy children

I think this is the key part - the consequence has to fit the "crime" or it's just meaningless.

So many jump to completely weird ones, like taking away a device because theu didn't eat their dinner.... How is that related?! Natural ones teach actual lessons IMO rather than just making you into some tyrant every time they displease you.

I’m wondering if you’ve had a chance to read my other posts?

Consequences rather than punishment - that's hardly anything new.

Well I do wonder if perhaps I just have lower expectations than some. I try to only ask the kids to do things I am confident they are capable of. There are many things my daughter may never be capable of.

The consequence for not meeting your bosses expectations is losing your treat of a pay check it’s both carrot and stick. There is a massive incentive to doing your job and meeting expectations not just a job well done

well go you for having such brilliant kids that always do what they are asked.. this just sounds like you’ve come on here to brag how great your kids are.

mine on the other hand never does what she’s asked.. has an attitude and a temper .. she’s 5! 🙉. She gets toys taken away & sometimes park trips cancelled. I don’t ever smack, nor would I ever dream of it.

sometimes coming out with stuff like that can make other parents feel like we are doing something wrong 😑

She's coming from a place of being a much better parent than people who need to lash out at their kids to get them to behave.

Come back in the teen years op

That might possibly be a thing. I know I’m definitely not fussed about some of the things other parents are, some I am (like the eating) but it’s pointless, some I’m stricter than other parents. Because the rules are technically few and consistent, I guess that makes them a lot easier to follow.

One point I would make though, like just waiting for your DD/kids to do something because they/she eventually does it, that just wouldn’t work in a busy household . If you have 3 kids to drop off at different schools and a job to get to , all by 9 o’clock you can’t be faffing about waiting for her to agree that it’s time to put her shoes on. Or on the return trip to stop collecting daisies and just get in the car . If you see what I mean.

I have a similar parenting philosophy to you - I explain things to them, I don't like unconnected "punishments", the main threat of non compliance is my displeasure.

However, even with that, my eldest has moments where they just do not care. Especially if angry or upset, "the look" means nothing, a polite request means nothing, knowing they're upsetting me means nothing. What happens if something absolutely had to be done, but your children would not comply when asked nicely/had it explained?

I don't believe in smacking and do not smack my children, but I do think children were probably better behaved under the years of corporal punishment, because they were scared! I don't believe in parenting by fear, so as I said I don't do it, but I do think it would have more immediately visible effects, which may be what those other people were observing

I don't think most people are using punishment loads. When my eldest was little I was very into gentle parenting, and this was a long time ago now, even before it was called that, but we had loads of threads about it on MN because it was a bit of a controversial idea that you wouldn't punish DC ever or really look to establish an expectation of compliance in general. It did feel like a distinct approach, different to the "mainstream" or normal approach to parenting, which, at the time, was in the tail end of the transition away from smacking and shouting, so lots of focus on direct alternatives to these strategies, such as naughty step/time out/removal of privileges, or token economy type things e.g. pasta jar, reward chart, clip chart kind of things. And the threads we had were more like what I think is mainstream now - talking about feelings, understanding tantrums as small children being overwhelmed, seeing the child's point of view, understanding that certain expectations might be difficult for them until they are older and being willing to break things down into steps or meet them halfway, etc. Essentially seeing parenting as being a version of teaching and guiding rather than the "toddler taming", drive the wildness out of them sort of narrative which had been more prevalent in the 00s and earlier.

Obviously like now, there were periodic threads about "But isn't this gentle parenting just a load of nonsense though?" and I remember one thread which really changed my mind because a poster asked me well - what's different about this gentle parenting? What are you doing which is so special that it needs a different name? I described what I felt the differences were and she replied and said this just sounds like what everyone I know does. She didn't recognise the version of parenting that I was presenting as the alternative to "gentle parenting" and I realised she was right, I'd been labouring under a very odd and probably just outdated idea that most people are expecting unthinking obedience from their children, ready to wield all kinds of threats to keep them in line, etc.

But also, I think that your children sound unusually naturally compliant. Which some children probably just are. We (humans) do have a natural instinct to want to please others/please our parents.

TBH although I don't use punishment/consequences very often, and don't especially have an expectation of compliance, I absolutely do not have naturally compliant children and do have to use it sometimes.

I really don’t see how anyone can truly believe this sort of thing unless they’ve very little empathy or life experience.

My friend was very smug about her parenting and how she just explained what was expected and they did it. All fun and games until they hit puberty…

Another thing I’ll throw in is that teaching total blind obedience isn’t always a good thing either. I was very compliant as a child, afraid of punishment (I remember being smacked for calling an adult “silly”), and indeed afraid of confrontation and standing my ground, because an adult could instantly end an argument by shouting at me or smacking me. I didn’t like being teased, and couldn’t possibly tease anybody else, and I simply didn’t understand why other children did it. To me, good-natured teasing was bullying. My brother was less inhibited than me, he pushed boundaries more, and in my childlike view, got away with murder, but I know as an adult he was treated the same as I was. My point is that children should (within reason) be allowed to act up a bit, find out where boundaries are, without necessarily being punished the first time; where possible, it should be explained to them why certain rules exist. I had much more respect for rules explained in this way. With rules and punishments which I saw as pointless, such as the whole school being made to practise lining up instead of having playtime, I obeyed them, but I seethed with anger. On one such occasion, aged 9, I lost my temper in spectacular fashion, in front of most of the school, and a teacher had to take me aside to calm me down. I loathed school in general for months after that: I saw it as a place where I was punished for what others did wrong.

As a teenager, my main failing was fear of criticism, especially about school work, and I got into spirals of lying about it, because I feared my parents’ reaction to bad marks, so I often didn’t do homework, and got into worse trouble. My mum was a teacher and was always “interfering”, and I told her as little about school as I could; this meant that I didn’t ask for help when I really needed it, and she could have provided it. I also couldn’t think outside the box, and I lacked creativity, which paradoxically meant I did badly in school subjects such as English; my only concern was giving the “right” answer. I feared criticism. I think my mum realised that I was over-compliant in just about everything apart from school work, and even she tried to encourage me to be a bit more “rebellious”, which I found absolutely baffling. She once said, and I quote: “My friend’s daughter often says ‘I hate you, mum’: I think it might do you good to say it occasionally”. I was fourteen at the time, and I think I stared open-mouthed on hearing this. When I was eighteen and able to do things myself, I felt I had to have my ideas “validated” by an adult; even ordinary things like going to the cinema.

As a young adult, I was extremely compliant, followed every rule in every book, got annoyed when other adults didn’t (eg. crossing the road at the red man), and I think this seriously held me back, and I didn’t have many friends. I thought about changing university course in my first year, but I stayed where I was, because didn’t want to “cause trouble”. The thing that finally snapped me out of blind compliance was 2020, when so many utterly mad roolz were imposed on us (most of which with no explanation or justification) and I became much more selective in my respect for “authority”, which was liberating, and I became much less of a people-pleaser.

So you waited to break the rules until there was a deadly virus going round?