AIBU to be surprised by how much some parents seem to use punishments?

[TheFairCat]

There have been a couple of threads recently about smacking and other types of discipline etc. The general consensus seems to be that smacking isn’t great but that without it parents have very little control over their children and don’t know how to ‘discipline’ them.

There also seems to be lot of talk about ‘consequences’ and banning devices, cancelling plans, taking toys away etc.

AIBU to be really surprised by this? I am by NO MEANS a ‘perfect’ parent (if such a thing exists) but generally my children just do what I ask them to do because I ask them. I have never even come close to smacking them and rarely if ever confiscate things (I might have taken things away if they were throwing them etc, but only briefly out of reach while I re-directed). Most of the time if I ask them to do something and they start complaining it’s enough just to give them ‘the look’. Similarly a raised eye-brow will often do the trick.

my eldest (10) is ND with some learning difficulties and parenting her is demanding in many, many ways but she does do as she’s asked most of the time. Both kids know what is expected and what behaviour is acceptable and for example, if my daughter is stroppy about doing something (tells me to go away, refuses to do it etc) I don’t generally have to ‘do’ anything. I just give it a bit of time and she will come and apologise and I’ll say something along the lines of ‘it’s OK to be frustrated, but it’s not OK to shout at me’ etc. and then she’ll do the thing I asked her to do and no more will be said about it. I guess some people might be shocked at how she’s spoken to me, but she will apologise of her own accord and will always be expected to do the thing I asked of her. I don’t know if maybe I just have low expectations/don’t ask for much? Basically both children know that we expect to be treated with kindness and respect and that they do what they are asked to (put away their dishes, put their clothes away, tidy up their mess, turn off their screens when asked, eat at the table etc.). I feel like they do those things because they don’t want us to be cross with them/want to please us? I guess I’m quite strict in that I have firm boundaries and definite ‘red lines’. I expect them to do things for themselves if they can, but they are allowed to express their feelings and emotions and I do listen.

They are currently 8 and 10. Am I in for a shock??

Do people know that gentle parenting isn’t permissive? It just means parenting without harsh control and punishment. It doesn’t mean your kids get to do whatever they want.

I think you need to start young. Simple and consistent routines and expectations. I’ve never had to shout at my dd (15). Generally she wants to do the right thing and I’ve always used natural consequences where possible which has worked very well. I’ve always been a pretty calm parent with a calm house.
As a teen she gives some back chat and asserts herself (which I’m pleased as I don’t want her to be a walk over) , but touch wood never been in trouble at school, knows right from wrong and tries to do her best. My siblings parent similar and my nieces and nephews (ranging from 2-20) have not stepped out of line, been grounded or had things confiscated.

No people absolutely don’t understand this.

I have lost count of the threads I have read on here where people lash out at “gentle parenting” only for it to become clear they actually mean “permissive parenting”.

They are not the same thing.

generally my children just do what I ask them to do because I ask them.
good for you? Is that why you need to write such a smug OP? 😂

I have good kids, their friends are similar good kids, they are all sporty, top sets at school, pretty much all of them are welcome for sleepovers here because they really are great kids.

HOWEVER I don't know any child who never needs to be told off or does everything on threat of a raised eyebrows 😂. There is nothing but kindness and respect, but they are not perfect little robots (which is why there's no ONE way to raise them, even siblings are all different)

I'd be starting to worry a lot to have children so compliant and with no personality whatsoever.

People are different. I was very much a stubborn child as in if I wasn't spoken to nicely I would refuse to do anything, my dad realised this and I didnt really get punished. My brother on the other hand was a handful at times and no matter what my dad did he wouldn't listen so was punished

It’s endlessly frustrating. I absolutely detest permissive parenting - you do your kids zero favours bringing them up with no discipline.

Some of the children my youngest goes to school with (all with autism) have some shocking behaviour and it’s not all because they are autistic. One mother said to me ‘I can’t bear to let him get upset’ after his behaviour was absolutely out of control at my house one day. She did nothing to try to help him behave better. She’s doing him a massive disservice and it’s really sad as he’s very similar to my older boy who is generally very well behaved and very able academically and socially.

I feel like a few of you haven’t read my OP, which probably was a bit waffly tbf.

I can assure you that NOBODY who’d met my kids would describe them as easy or compliant. Nor could I ever be described as being smug. If you ever met us you’d see how hilarious that is. Both our kids are ND and our eldest has quite complex needs.

I am just saying that I don’t use punishments. Maybe I should? I didn’t say they did things the first time I asked them or that I didn’t have to ask them many hundreds of times before they began to do things automatically. I’m just saying that their motivation for doing things seems to be because I’ve asked them to do them and they don’t want to be ‘in trouble’ or for me to be cross with them. I suppose if I give them the ‘mum look’ or raise my eye-brow etc I am threatening them, but what I’m threatening them with is that I’ll be cross if they continue.

So, I’m not saying that they necessarily do what I say the moment I say it (though this has improved over the years, with endless repetition) but that they do always do it eventually and when they do, it won’t be because I’ve threatened them with punishments it will be because I’ve asked them to and they don’t want me to be cross/want me to stop being cross.

This is very much how I was parented in the 80s so it’s how I’ve parented without thinking. I would never have wanted to upset my mum or hurt her feelings or disappoint her. I respected her opinion and still do. She gave me quite a lot of freedom as a teenager and I got up to all sorts, but if she told me absolutely not to something I didn’t, she didn’t need to threaten me. Equally if she told me to be home by a certain time I was. I would never have wanted to worry her.

Maybe it is just a personality thing, but it’s not about being naturally cautious or not a rule breaker, surely it’s about not wanting to hurt that person or cause them extra work etc?

Maybe if my mum had doled out lots of punishments or smacked me I would have been less bothered about her feelings?

I thought you were going to say a clip around the ear! That'd be a first for Mumsnet.

How can you be "in trouble" if there's literally no consequence? It makes no sense

All the kids I see want their parents to be proud and would be devastated to be a disappointment , but they also have a right sense of priorities and what's important.

Sometimes they mess around and they are smart enough to know it's not going to hurt or disappoint anyone, it doesn't matter that much and not everything is about "feelings"/

And maybe I wouldn't waste my breath repeating something so many times, and make everything drags along

I don't smack, but I do give time outs and take stuff away etc. DC1 could be parented basically in the way you parent, OP. Hates to be in trouble, would not like to upset us, and therefore could be given a talking to and would generally comply. DC2 absolutely could not be parented in that way. He needs really clear boundaries with explicit extrinsic rewards and consequences for behaviour.

Children are different and sometimes need parenting in different ways.

Almost exactly the same here

You just have fairly compliant children OP

My children were very much like yours and I never had any real problems with discipline or them not doing what they've been asked to do. Mealtimes, bedtimes etc were all pretty easy and apart from the odd bit of teenage stroppiness they've grown into lovely adults who I enjoy spending time with very much!

But I do think I was lucky and there are some children who are headstrong/explosive and require a lot more input when it comes to socialising them!

What I think helped me was having a fairly set routine during the week so the children always knew what the expectations were, it wasn't chaotic, it was generally calm and if they seemed tired and grumpy, I'd get them to bed early!

My youngest son said recently that he didn't think I'd been a strict parent - this surprised me because I always thought I was quite strict 😂 he said you never really grounded us or took the xbox away or anything and I said none of you ever did anything that I thought warranted grounding or removal of screens etc. They really were good kids in the main.

I sometimes think the overuse of severe punishments for silly things like being 10 minutes late home can breed resentment and damage the parent/child relationship. Even after disagreements, I was always quick to give a hug and remind them that I love them and we're on the same side. I think because we had a close & loving relationship, they were considerate of my feelings too and would apologise for occasional rudeness or stroppiness.

You are the best parent in the world, the way your children act is all down to you. Children who don’t listen/behave have shit parents.

🌟

I also think some "punishments" can really help. DC2 struggles with emotional regulation, and using time outs has actually helped give him (and me) time to calm down and have much more productive conversations about his behaviour. Having time to decompress means he often calms down enough to be able to articulate what the problem was in a way that he couldn't in the moment. Similarly, taking away the games he loves for a short time when he threw tantrums about losing has made him much better at coping with losing and winning in a more reasonable way.

A teenager is a totally different ball game. I could have written your post last year; not now.

Maybe it’s just semantics and I’m misunderstanding what people are saying.

There are consequences, but they are not what I would consider to be punishments and I wouldn’t describe them as such. For example, if my son is messing around at the dinner table I would say ‘X if you keep swinging on your chair and messing about you’re going to end up knocking something over. Can you please stop’. If he doesn’t stop I might say ‘you need to sit with your bottom on the chair and eat with your knife and fork please’. If he doesn’t stop and then knocks over his drink he will be expected to clear it all up, put the paper towel in the bin and get himself a new drink. My hope being that next time I say a similar thing he will remember that it was good advice and try and stop ‘just because I’ve told him to’.

I will also explain the reasons I don’t what the kids to do various things in terms of the impact they have on me or their Dad, e.g. extra time cleaning, extra money to be spent etc.

If a behaviour is ruining my enjoyment of something I will also say so, for example ‘I’m finding it really impossible to concentrate on the film because you keep kicking the table, can you find something else to fiddle with please’ (I might suggest something).

Like I say, maybe I just have quite low expectations and they’re easy for them to meet. I didn’t consciously choose not to use the naughty step or time out etc, it just didn’t really occur to me. I do believe that unrelated consequences can be unhelpful and confusing for children though, so have deliberately avoided those. I suppose saying ‘if you don’t stop swinging on your chair they’ll be no TV for a week’ would perhaps yield a speedier response and save me repeating myself 3 million times, but we do usually get there in the end!

What do they see happen when people make you "cross"?

There are these reels where a parent goes to feed an infant some food and the infant refuses. The parent then goes to feed another adult the food, and they also refuse it. The "feeder" then slaps the other adult across the face and that adult responds by gratefully accepting the food. The "feeder" then offers the infant the food again and they accept it straight away.

I agree op. My kids are the same.

For example, if my son is messing around at the dinner table I would say ‘X if you keep swinging on your chair and messing about you’re going to end up knocking something over. Can you please stop’. If he doesn’t stop I might say ‘you need to sit with your bottom on the chair and eat with your knife and fork please’. If he doesn’t stop and then knocks over his drink he will be expected to clear it all up, put the paper towel in the bin and get himself a new drink.

It's semantics. We don't call having to clear it up yourself a punishment these days, we call it a natural consequence.
While I agree that thinking about it as such often means the 'punishment' is appropriate and the child is more likely to learn, from the child's POV they may regard it as a punishment and I bet if you were in a cafe people would tut at you 'making' the child clear up after an accident.

In your example what would you do if this behaviour resulted in his sibling's toy being broken?

In your example, some might roll their eyes after your THIRD admonishment.
A swift 'stop swinging on your chair or you won't get pudding' might be more effective, especially if the chair swinging is not a new thing.

Same OP. My DD is just really compliant. We do have other issues - she can be anxious and she’s had a few friendship issues but I’ve never had to even tell her off really, let alone give any sort of sanction. But one or two of her friends - my god. I have had to shout at them and threaten sending home etc as they are so wild. So it really is child dependent in my view and doesn’t really reflect the parents or their approach to parenting. One thing I would say though, if you are able to parent gently it’s easier to build their self esteem and sense of self which I think bodes well for adolescence.

Maybe it’s just parenting ND children. My eldest is the most complex of the two and we had to parent her in quite a specific way. She needs very clear boundaries and she needs to understand the reason for things. She needs instructions and expectations to be repeated many times and benefits from routine and predictability. She is easily overwhelmed and shouting at her or threatening her would be extremely counterproductive. She is very sensitive to rejection so I would never have given her ‘time out’ or sent her to her bedroom. However, she will often take herself off after a period of dysregulation as she needs space to calm herself. She will then often apologise if she’s been rude. She is quite black and white in her thinking and struggles with ambiguity so I never, ever back down if I’ve asked her to do something (or stop doing something) and I guess she know that. She would be very confused if I made threats I didn’t follow through with or let her do something some days or not others. We also have pretty strict rules around screen time etc. and she is much more heavily supervised than other children of her age because of her vulnerability.

Our son is far less complicated so probably would have managed punishments etc. but like I say it wasn’t the way I was brought up and it didn’t really occur to me to me.

Nowadays they do mostly do what they’re told. I wouldn’t describe either of them as being particularly compliant kids, maybe I’ve just worn them down! 😬

Hitting anybody is never okay. I say this as somebody with challenging dcs.

Good for you? 🤷

She is quite black and white in her thinking and struggles with ambiguity so I never, ever back down if I’ve asked her to do something (or stop doing something) and I guess she know that. She would be very confused if I made threats I didn’t follow through with or let her do something some days or not others.

Aren't most kids like that? Young ones for sure. Maybe not the black and white thinking, but parents being flakey?
What are your threats if not punishments of some kind?

Nowadays they do mostly do what they’re told. I wouldn’t describe either of them as being particularly compliant kids, maybe I’ve just worn them down

How did you wear them down?