Parenting Professor says that she supports smacking children

[ThisAmpleCritic]

Quote:
Prof Ellie Lee, a family and parenting researcher at the University of Kent …supports the use of smacking, said: "It would be great if we could just be nice to children and think they would just be nice back. But the reality of it is, is that in order for children to understand the rules of society, and to learn how to behave in a way that is moral, and that is good, we have to have boundaries, and boundaries have to be backed up."

AIBU to think this is a disgusting attitude and her credentials should be challenged? Children deserve protection from
violence and aggression from their caregivers. Why should they not be given the same rights as adults, who are free to test boundaries without fear of physical assault?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2eyke83yz9o

I agree, no one is saying abuse your child - bruises, broken bones et al. However I see nothing wrong with snacking a child. Granted not every infraction will result in it, but it’s okay to use it when necessary- reasonably of course. Spare the rod spoil the child.

I was in Jordan having dinner at a restaurant a family were sitting next to us, the little boy started to act up, literally one smack from the mum and he sat nicely at dinner. No screeching, no terribly behaved kids.

Well you're wrong im afraid. My dh grew up in a religious home. His parents were 'old fashioned' or 'conservative' in their parenting views. His relationship with his dad is superficial and slightly strained and he absolutely says its because he remembers his dad smacking him multiple times as a kid. Never hard, no, but it was still scary. Especially waiting for the smack apparently.
I would never use physical violence on a child as a punishment and I cant understand the mentality of someone who would frankly.
Having said that I did once slap a 2 year olds hand away as he was reaching out to the BBQ. He wasnt my kid and he cried. I took him to his mum who luckily thanked me rather than being annoyed. Obviously it wss the context that made that one different

100% look at the economy, look at the threads in here. Parents scared of 5 year olds, badly behaved children leading to divorces, it’s mad. They give children so much power and are scared to discipline them. You now have freak teens running througg city centres, every child is on some form of ehcp, anxiety - little darlings can’t bear to go to school, but I’m sure they are having screen time. It’s the rest of us who have to pay for the lack of discipline. The largest yoy increase spend for Local Authorities are SEND services (followed by adults (elderly). It’s all weird reasons their children are on these plans. The root cause of it all being lack of discipline

There is not one tiny bit of understanding or compassion in that post @ThisOliveKoala . Not one.

Absolutely not true. Its lazy parents who have to resort to physical viol6to get their kids to behave because they fear them. Its not teaching values is it. Its teaching if you dont get your own way use violence. Id love to see a study conducted on prison inmates and whether or not there's a higher than average chance they were hit at home. Id wager there would be!

Discipline doesn’t equal smacking. Would you be happy for your child’s teacher to smack them?

You would think if the smacking was so effective he wouldn’t be “acting up” while out for dinner.
It’s almost as if smacking doesn’t actually create behavioural change beyond a child being afraid of their parents in the moment.

What do people mean by what alternative is there to smacking?

I have used: a firm voice. Immediate removal from a situation. Taking things away and putting them away. I have told my children off. I have maintained a strict demeanour when they have misbehaved. So no ‘nice mummy’ doing hugs and cuddles 5 mins after they have behaved badly. And always immediate consequences. I don’t feel bad if they don’t get something, have something etc.

This might be hugely controversial but we are no screen/low screen family (and I had a toddler and a primary school kid during COVID and had to WFH so I know the pain) and this means my kids have had to get used to being bored. It was a pain at first especially on longer journeys but now they’ll listen to audiobooks, music, chat to us. We watch movies, sport, cooking programmes, Gladiators but most if not all screen time is communal watching.

I have a teenager and a pre teen. Of course they have their moments but boundaries are boundaries and I have held them very strictly. So they could scream and scream and I wouldn’t give in when they were toddlers. That stopped fairly quickly. You also set expectations- we are going here and I expect X.

I once told my child that if he continued to behave in a certain way after school every day then for a mufti day he would have no home clothes- he could be the only one in school uniform. And I stuck to that line.
At the same time I also looked into WHY he was behaving that way- some of it was him showing off to his friends and being disrespectful. So I spoke to his teacher and began collecting him from a different place and going home without the post school drama. In 3 weeks it was sorted.

My experience is that kids are quite smart and once you hold the line/boundary consistently for a while they know what those boundaries are. I also have high expectations of my kids- I have two boys and I have zero desire to produce useless men. From when they were tiny they have been doing chores.
Now they do my recycling, help with laundry, can make their breakfast, always help with tidying. These are non negotiable. They can change their sheets. And in the summer the teenager makes lunch twice a week and dinner once a week and his brother helps him.

Finally of course how we discipline has changed. With the teenager there are more natural consequences. There was a brief thing about the phone and I simply took it away and handed him a brick phone. I think I am not afraid to be unpopular with my kids. Am I too strict? Maybe. Does it help that my kids are neurotypical? Of course it does. Does it help that DH and I don’t have huge money worries and good jobs which are somewhat flexible? Of course.

I agree that children need a healthy respect for their parents and to either not want to displease them or a slight wariness.

DS in his twenties and I smacked his hand once and his bottom once and we have a really great relationship. We are incredibly close and he has never given us any real hassle.

DD is a teenager and has never been smacked, we are not weak parents with no boundaries in any sense but she certainly has a lack on intrinsic respect for us and even trust in us. We are working on this right now and things are getting better.

It may well just be down the personality, and I really thought our generation had it right with parenting compared to our parents. But now when I look at teens mental health, I am not so sure. I think knowing that your parents are head of the pack and have your back decreases anxiety.

Firm voice makes no difference when my children are together @PotolKimchi They listen to one another, not me.

I would be interested in these immediate consequences. Because no one’s given any that work with an under 3 yet. It’s all been about removing from situations, which involves physical force and depending on your child quite a lot of it.

Some kids are pretty difficult.

It's assault. I have more respect than to hit my child. I could never do that.

I think that’s just you. The idea that no methods of discipline work for under 3s other than smacking is insane. Even the idea that physically striking your child would make them understand their behaviour is unacceptable more than them being able to comprehend words at that age is totally illogical.
You struggle to parent your children, that’s on you.
I’ve happily gone through the 0-3 years with 2 kids and who are normal decent, well behaved children who have exhibited age appropriate boundary pushing at times and never once have I even considered lifting my hand at them, but then the events of the the week have shown us there violent people all around us who will happily use this against someone more vulnerable than them so it’s hardly surprising there are parents who still resort to smacking their children.

At 3 you can pick your child up and remove them. Yes they aren't going to like it, especially if they are accustomed to doing what they like and you being powerless to parent them, but that is what you do. Dont listen first time? Up and away from the fun thing until your focus and attention is back on me. Immediately.

You do that a few times so they know you are serious. No matter where you are or what you're doing, the moment you stop listening we leave. Follow through. Actually take them right home. They need to see that you are serious and have the backbone to keep to your word or they'll just see you as weak and never respect you.

I think some people get too much validation from your kid liking you, and not enough validation from actually parenting that little person.

The issue with smacking/tapping/slapping , always lightly of course but somehow still hard enough to cause a shock, is that it doesn’t always work either. So where do you go from there? Apply more force? Move from hand to bottoms? Bare bottoms? Bare legs? Use an implement?

We had this conversation earlier in the thread. It takes one hell of a lot of physical force for very determined / angry children to remove them from something / somewhere and to keep them away.

Have you ever tried to get an angry cat into a container? It isn’t about size, it’s about will.

With both mine, it has involved / involves forcing hands / fingers off things, holding round the middle hard, grabbing limbs and squeezing.

It’s horrible. It feels horrible for both: they are fighting you, you’re fighting them. It’s easy for either party to be hurt accidentally.

I’ve been clear all the way through this thread that I think smacking is wrong. I also think manhandling a toddler in that way is best avoided in all but the most serious sort of scenarios (where there is actual risk of harm in other words.) I can’t really think of when that’s happened thankfully. Maybe when then 2 year old ds had a tantrum on a level crossing

You do neither: you do what I’m doing at the moment which is try to stay calm, accept you have no control over the situation and then turn to antidepressants to try to get through each day!

People who hit other people for no other reason than they are bigger than them always think they're reasonable.

Unconscionable fuckers.

It's assault. Should be banned.

"in order for children to understand the rules of society, and to learn how to behave in a way that is moral, and that is good, we have to have boundaries, and boundaries have to be backed up."

Just factually wrong. Children aren not inherently immoral in their behaviour unless punished. Most humans are born with innate prosocial attitudes.

You’re constantly trying to muddy the situation, physically picking your child up and removing them from a situation is not the same as hitting your child. No one is trying to make that comparison but you. Physically carrying a screaming toddler away from the situation and taking them home is not a violent solution.
Hitting your children is unacceptable, squeezing your children while carrying them “a little harder than necessary” as you or perhaps someone else mentioned is in the same vein as smacking, throwing your child to the ground after carrying them is again in the same vein as smacking.

No one is saying you cannot physically remove a child from a situation but no part of that needs to or should include physically striking them.

Manhandling a tantrumming toddler isn't risk free but it's better than letting them get away with hurting others because you're scared to move them away from the situation.

No, any physical discipline should be the responsibility of the parent only. If it’s a method they choose to use.

Why? If parents can’t control their 2.5 children without smacking, because nothing else works, why should teachers be expected to control 30 of them without? It’s either an acceptable method of discipline or it isn’t.

If it was just picking up a child I’d agree I would be muddying the situation but I’m not talking about picking a child up. I’m talking about having to use substantial force to physically prevent that child indulging in unwanted behaviour.

When you are having to bear hug them, grab their limbs and hands and fingers he’s sorry it is muddy water. Because that water looks a lot like physical abuse to me, and while the intent might not be there I’m not sure that makes a lot of difference to the child.

Why do you keep linking that to smacking though?

Yes, sometimes restraining is necessary for the child’s well being or the ones around them. Necessary being the operative word here.

I don't think anyone uses smacking as a nicely controlled, calculated and effective behaviour management method if they're honest. It's almost always a loss of control in the moment, which may stop the behaviour in the moment, but does little to teach the child anything other than It's ok to hit others.

I have two children. My eldest has never been smacked. He has never pushed boundaries to the point where I have snapped. Our behaviour management strategies were perfectly effective wothout smacking and he's grown into a lovely young man.

My youngest is autistic. When she was younger, we tried the same methods that worked for ds. Nothing changed. At the time, we didn't realise dd's behaviour resulted from dysregulation and she was unable to articulate it, and we knew nothing about how autism can present differently in girls. She wasn't diagnosed. We viewed her as wilful, defiant, naughty. And I'm ashamed to say that twice when she has hit or kicked me in the midst of this dysregulation, my automatic response/ instinct was to smack her back. This was my own nervous system tipping into fight or flight - not an excuse, but a reason. Was it effective? No. It escalated her further. Did it resolve anything? No. I felt shit and ashamed, she felt scared.

We now have a greater understanding of her, she's older now too. If we can't prevent the escalation, we know to leave her alone and wait for the storm to pass before calmly re-engaging. There are still consequences (natural ones applied for the greatest impact behaviours) but they happen when we're not in the middle of it and her brain is back 'online'. Sometimes, if we catch her before she's escalated too much, we're able to co-regulate.

But I'll always feel ashamed that I lost control like that. I don't agree with smacking at all. Because I think once you resort to it, you've actually lost control of everything.