To think is unreasonable to request GCSE for certain jobs?

[Twinkletwinklittlestar]

Do all jobs really request GCSE in the UK? There is huge emphasis on them in schools so trying to understand. Eg: chefs, clothing shop assistants, stock rooms, deliveries, waitresses, catering, etc.

I am a foreigner, didn’t do GCSE, got jobs easily, Levis never asked me for GCSE. Then studied ACCA and I don’t think they asked for this either,

Is really further education and jobs unavailable for people who didn’t do GCSE or fail them?

You're wrong. It's not basic. I got an A in GCSE maths in the 90s but I look at my son's GCSE maths stuff and have no idea about it. It's mostly deeply theoretical stuff, the vast majority of which I have never needed to use in daily life or any job. It's also bloody hard. Also English. Yes for every day life it is necessary to be able to read and write competently but is it really necessary to be able to identify onamatapeioa(sp?) and pathetic fallacy in a text?????

I agree there should be meaningful alternatives for those who are unlikely to pass GCSEs, to give them the opportunity to gain qualifications and work.

But generally things that anyone with a reasonable level of IQ can manage to understand well enough to pass a GCSE in.

It’s a low bar and it’s not unreasonable for many jobs to apply it.

If a skill I was looking for was rare enough that I could not be too choosy (high-level sportsperson for example, or a craftsman such as a cabinet maker, or an artist) then I’d not ask for a maths GCSE.

Around 18% of adults in England (roughly 6.6 million people) are functionally illiterate. This means they struggle to read unfamiliar texts such as instructions, job applications, or official forms. They have basic reading capabilities, but can't interpret what they read. This hampers everyday tasks and makes it hard to be independent.

About the same proportion are functionally innumerate. It's absolutely staggering how many people can count, but can't work out the change for a cash purchase or how many bags of 6 apples you'd need for 3 kids to have one a day.

There are functional skills tests, aren't there? You obviously can't employ a functionally illiterate and innumerate person in many jobs at all, there needs to be evidence of the applicant's ability.

literacytrust.org.uk/parents-and-families/adult-literacy/

My sons functional skills papers included basic algera like 3xy =12 what is y if x is 4

It also had stuff like the volume of a cone and using formula for compound interest. It covered percentages, probability, ratios etc too.

Its a long time since I did maths - i got an A. But i think grade 4 is above basic maths as people seem to equate grade 4 as the minimum level of maths needed for work. Lots of work literally just needs mental arithmetic.

Functionsl skills maths still covers a lot of stuff most people would never need

Those things are there for the more able students. As PPs are saying, you can get a GCSE pass with basic functionality. You wouldn't want the course to stop there without stretching the clever kids!

Btw, from what I've seen they are learning the same stuff we did. It's just got different names now and, often, better ways of doing it.

On the historical front, I should probably add, that when the state first started funding grammar schools, about 40% of school places nationally were in a selective grammar school environment, but over the next 20 years, as secondary school pupils numbers grew, they reduced to about 25%. I don’t have access to data on the percentage of children who aspired to a grammar school education and didn’t get in, but I know that, once it was free, demand naturally grew and that no government planned for or gave serious consideration to meeting this demand. If current GCSE data is anything to go by, the aim should have been to expand grammar schools (especially in heavily populated areas without many) so that around 60% of school places were in a grammar. This would make funding a really super alternative with great facilities for a smaller number of kids.

Tou can’t turn back time, but we could learn from this and start putting serious thought into offering a curriculum that enabled the bottom 40% of GCSE children to take an alternative educational pathway that enables them to thrive.

So how comes all the people they import to do care jobs get them then?

Maybe. But I still bump into people all the time who can't do arithmetic. They really can't.

Even the foundation level goes way beyond basic funtionality

I agree with that, @Genevieva. I'm from the era of O-levels and CSEs. It gets a bad rap these days as conflicts with current ideology, but it made sense then and still does imo.

gcse or equivalent, i.e. full time education at age 16 and that school year's report card (most countries do exams at that stage that count)

I have to show mine even for company internal moves and promotions.

A huge number of kids don't get maths & English GCSEs so no it's not impossible to get jobs without them.

What usually happens is they'll go to college and do a level 1 or 2 course and work up - things like construction, animal care, health and social care, auto mechanics, early years, catering and hospitality.
Once they have a level 2 qualification in something they can go and work.

I probably would ask for GCSEs for a cabinet maker. They need to measure, work out angles, etc, and distinguish between tins of paint stripper and varnish.

Do you genuinely think that 30% of adults are not capable of even the most menial work??
Many things, some not to do with intellectual skills (disruption at school or home, additional needs that are not intellectual in nature) can get in the way of passing GCSEs. Statistically 5% of people have a significant intellectual disability. The rest have fallen through the cracks, or the barrier is set too high.

You can do an online course in functional skills or just complete self study with a book and then sit the exam independently.

The same with GCSEs GCSEs are made to be challenging at 16 but with a few years experience, different life circumstances etc. many of the people who failed would find them much less of a struggle.

One of the biggest bars to that is it their school experience has inculcated in them a feeling that they're not good at maths. Then they have an additional anxiety too surmount too.
I found that very sad.

I work at an FE College with a lot of lower level students who score a 1 in mock Maths papers. I've linked to a past paper that's non-calculator and wonder how many people on this thread would be able to tackle the questions and pass?
2024 Maths GCSE Non-calc Past paper

I can't answer your first question because I'm not sure how it relates to my post. I guess the short (and not very thought-out) response would be 'no - where are you getting that from?'

I have never been impressed by the GCSE, either in terms of syllabus or as an exam. It's been chopped, changed, mangled and messed with since its inception. OK, I'm mainly aware of the English and History syllabuses, but I've always thought they're not fit for purpose either for either end of the academic spectrum. At one time the GCSE seemed to change year by year - poor students, and also - difficult for employers etc to assess its value as a qualification.

Remember coursework? What a disaster. Teachers and schools practically doing it for the students in the end : creating templates or allowing them to repeat it until they got it right. Pointless, stressful, time-wasting and not in the least a representation of what children were capable of on their own.

I am totally against non-academic students being forced (for example) to plough through Shakespeare. Yes, go and watch a play, but don't make them study it for exams. It's setting them up to fail. There are plenty of other things you can do in English which are more immediately appealing to them and which will be of actual practical use in real life.

The barrier is set too high. Well, not too high - but wrongly focused. See above - I think less academic students should have a much more real-life based syllabus in English and maths. I've met so many teenagers who can't string a sentence together to speak to an adult, or compose a coherent email. These are real-life skills - not writing essays on Shakespeare. Confident and clear use of spoken and written English should be the focus, and it could actually be fun.

So it's pointless for me to ramble on - I have always disliked GCSEs and they have failed to provide the one-size-fits-all ideal (what a surprise!!) which was their ideological basis - but no-one wants to admit that.

What things are being asked at foundation level that go beyond the basics?

I disagree strongly about an 4 in English language showing basic functionality. DS is a bright literate boy and should get a number of 9s at GCSE. He has struggled with English language. He was over analysing things and finding it hard to write enough in the time frame due to this. Over thinking basically. He should, with extra work and a tutor, get a 5 or 6 which he needs for sixth form (grammar) but please don’t think these exams are easy.

I can’t speak about the maths. Thankfully he’s hoping for top grades as he finds this much easier but there is no way I could do the maths paper now despite a B in GCSE many moons ago and using some basic maths as an adult for work.

They really shouldn’t be failing 30% of children. If these children cannot pass the standard, they need a more basic paper which proves literacy and numeracy at 16 and not make them failures then.

If someone is already a well-regarded cabinet maker then I’d not. They are already demonstrating the skill to a high level so what would the information add?

Seriously? That’s like asking if people here can read and understand a page out if the Famous Five.

No - I'm saying that the level of attainment in a low pass GCSE is very basic. I'm sure the syllabus is challenging and if you get an 8 or 9 that represents a good performance.

I can’t speak about the maths. Thankfully he’s hoping for top grades as he finds this much easier but there is no way I could do the maths paper now despite a B in GCSE many moons ago and using some basic maths as an adult for work.

They really shouldn’t be failing 30% of children. If these children cannot pass the standard, they need a more basic paper which proves literacy and numeracy at 16 and not make them failures then.

Exactly - as in the old CSE. A syllabus and an exam which gives less academic children a chance to show their own particular strengths.

To be honest I’ve never even been asked for proof of my degree for a job.

Now I’m senior, my job requires me to be a member of a governing body and they would ask for my registration number (and I needed proof of degree to register for that) but entry level and mid management level I’ve never had to show proof of my very relevant and needed degree. Just job references from previous places.

Obviously I had no job reference when I finished uni and went to my first entry level job but they never asked to see my degree certificate or for a university reference.

I think on the job it would become pretty obvious if someone was literate or not. That’s what the probation period is there for.