What exactly is the strictness in English schools actually achieving?

[WaitAMinutePlease]

I’ve been on Mumsnet for years and one thing that genuinely puzzles me is how strict many English schools seem to be.

The thread today about the little boy with severe leg pain, and his mum asked if he could temporarily leave school at 1.30pm instead of 3.30pm because he’s struggling physically. The school apparently refused and said they wouldn’t “release” him. (Sorry? You won’t ‘release’ MY child??? WTAF!)

I see similar threads all the time. Parents being threatened with fines over attendance, children not being allowed time off for family holidays, requests for flexibility being refused, schools insisting on attendance despite medical issues that are still being investigated, and so on.

I’m Irish, and honestly this feels ridiculous to me. Irish schools are generally much more pragmatic. If a child was struggling with a health issue, even one that hadn’t yet been formally diagnosed, most schools would work with the parents. Reduced hours, work sent home, flexibility around attendance, none of that would seem remotely controversial. Equally, while schools don’t encourage term-time holidays, taking children out of school for a family holiday isn’t generally treated as some major disciplinary issue.

What I don’t understand is what the strictness is actually achieving. Ireland has a higher proportion of students progressing to third-level education than England by a mile (approx 76% vs 46%), so it’s not obvious to me that a highly punitive attendance culture produces better educational outcomes.

So my question is: why are English schools like this?

Is it government pressure? Ofsted? League tables? Funding linked to attendance? Or is it actually genuinely believed that this level of strictness benefits children?

Which is what would have happened in my school too. As you say no drama. If you then forgot it again, you might get a lunchtime detention or get a talking to from your form or year tutor.

And in my school there was a rule about not being able to use the school hall as a shortcut during lunchtime. Which made sense when something was going on in there but not when it was empty.

Also we weren't allowed to use the main entrance - you had to be in the sixth form to be allowed to use it. I sort of get that one but not the one about the school hall.

Again with the I don't agree so you must be lying about your experience 🙄

See my post above - it is my daughter history teacher (her favourite teacher) and the way she manages the classroom came up when we were talking about which teachers she was hoping for when she starts year 10 in September.

I had teachers like that at school that were the most liked and respected and so did @natsku and @Whatafustercluck judging from the stories they shared.

However, you clearly find it hard to believe that any methods other than yours work, but maybe you need to open up your mind rather than dismissing it out of hand.

Speak to your students and ask them what they think is effective to get them to listen - not just the good ones, but the disrupters - especially the disrupters.

When you take 10 mins to have a one on one chat with them, what do they say frustrates them and causes disruption and what are their suggestions for improvement?

Obviously not everything will be implementable or realistic, but where is there room for change and compromise in a way that gives those kids agency and improves the classroom environment for everyone.

There are uniforms and uniforms though. I agree with a simple uniform that you can buy easily from any supermarket/M&S etc. And a PE uniform which washes and wears well is a practical idea. I would say a polo shirt plus trousers and black trainers is practical and easy to comply with.

I don't agree with silly rules about what shoes you can wear and requiring blazers/caps and saying when you can and can't take your jumper off. And the cost of some of the items is ludicrous too.

So not exactly the same type that BloominNora has described.

The absolute ARROGANCE of trying to tell me, an extremely successful teacher who successfully trains other teachers, that I might want to try talking to my pupils.

I mean, what the fuck are you thinking?

What you have described is what works for your DD's class and that is fine.
But it wouldn't work for all classes and I have seen these laid back teacher's lassons destroyed by the more difficult pupils.
I will even go so far as to point out that these laid back teachers are often given the easier classes as they cannot cope with the more difficult pupils that require teachers that can be everything that you describe but strict when required.

Caps? There are schools that require caps?

What amuses me about the uniform debate is the idea that all parents are against uniforms. If parents really hated uniform, private schools wouldn't have the most nobby uniforms of them all.

The problem is that after you have told pupils that they can use the main hall as a short cut that is the only bit that they hear.
They forget, and I do mean forget, that they are not supposed to use it when it is being used.

Thankfully revoked at my kids school now but up until last year:

No jewellery beyond one small pair of studs...forget to take a ring off before school you get a behaviour point, its confiscated until the end of the day (and sometimes lost by the teacher). Do it a second time and you get a detention.

Trousers slightly too short and showing your ankles (because heaven forbid kids have growth spurts), behaviour point for uniform infringement.

Have a scrunchie in your hair or on your wrist? Behaviour point for uniform infringement.

A rule still in place - feeling hot and uncomfortable in the classroom - you can't quietly take your blazer off you have to raise your hand to ask permission and you certainly can't take it off at lunchtime or break unless an email has been sent to parents about the hot weather and giving permission for the next xxx days for blazers to be taken off / left at home.

Inconsistent enforcement of the behaviour policy depending on teacher mood / kids reputation - not so much a rule as stupid enforcement of the rules.

One school local to us has made the PE kit the uniform - kids go to school in blue joggers and the school sports top. They take a change of clothes on PE day for after the lesson but save a load of time at the start as they don't need to get changed.

I agree with most of these but as a tech teacher the jewelry one is very important. I workshops rings can cause injuries and be the can caus ethe loss of fingers.
In Food tech jewelry is a hygiene issue.

As for the blazers I always had a blanket rule that they could be taken off.

We offfered polo shirts, non branded just a certain colour, very few parents bothered.

So now you've moved from its made up to its somehow overuling teachers?

In what way am I over ruling anyone by recounting personal experiences of teachers that are respected by the kids they are teaching and achieve good results?

I have said this to you several times but it bears repeating - just because there is a discussion going on and people are airing views that are opposite to yours or providing examples that don't align with your views and experiences does not make their views (or yours) any less valid.

You have, at various times, said in relation to mine and others accounts of our experiences and our opinions:

a) They are stupid
b) Are not true
c) Are overulling teachers

None of those things are accurate.

Perhaps it is just your frustration because your experience and views don't align with ours and you don't agree with the solutions proposed. That frustration is both understandable and legitimate but is still not appropriate to debase others views in that way that you have.

I will continue to engage respectfully and not mirror your behaviour, because I have learned over the years not to (I certainly would have been mirroring you 25 years ago)

However, if you talk to your pupils in the same way that you have spoken to people on this thread, I would not be surprised if they do choose to mirror your behaviour because they are teenagers and don't yet have the tools to respond differently.

If you don't speak to your pupils in this way then it shows that you are capable of respecting others different opinions but are making a choice not to do so here, which is just a bit sad more than anything.

Disagreement is not fundamentally a bad thing. Respectful conversation about disagreements and debate is in fact a very good thing.

Listening to others about their experiences of what works, debating the different pros and cons of approaches and not resorting to insults to debase the views of others is how compromise is reached and how sustainable change is achieved.

It is a skill schools should absolutely be teaching their pupils.

The school have lifted this one now - jewellery is allowed (within reason) so necklaces but not big chains, as many ear piercings as they like, eyebrow stud / ring and nose stud too (not septum), rings, but again, not big or obnoxious ones.

They are allowed on the proviso that the jewellery is removed for PE and where safety / hygiene is a requirement. The school have been clear they take no responsibility for the loss of any jewellery and the kids know if they don't remove it when needed to go OTT the old rules will be put back in place.

Seems to be working well so far.

Nobody on this thread has suggested that overly draconian rules about petty aspects of appearance etc. are useful.
Many posters have indicated that in environments where such rules are not as strict and teachers are consistent and respectful a minority of students remain disruptive and defiant. These zero tolerance environments arent universal.
Despite this some posters persist in saying that the problems are due to petty rules and teachers not being respectful and flexible enough with students. This general attitude is frankly mind boggling.
How about acknowledging defiance and disruption in response to simple reasonable requests? This impacts everyones learning. Nobody seems to want to comment on funding challenges. Funding for support for students with SEND, mental health and trauma related challenges just isnt there. Nobody seems to want to comment on parents encouraging disrepectful attitudes - i have witnessed parents basically laughing and making light of shitty behaviour. Nope. Multiple posters just blame 'rules' and bash teachers.

Both of the teachers described can be strict when required...the difference between them and the ultra strict shouty ones is that it is not required as often and is more effective when it is.

Do you work in Education?

OK - so I take it by that response you have spoken to your pupils?

As per my question in the para after that - what did they say? What actions did you take to find compromises and implemented change? How have you fed that learning into your training?

Or are you shouting and getting angry because you think it is arrogant to even make the suggestion that their opinions matter?

If your pupils talk to you about their views on what makes the classroom work for them and it differs from your views, do you respond by shouting at them, calling them arrogant and asking "what the fuck [they] are thinking"?

Have you considered that experienced teachers do talk to pupils? That they do talk respectfully? That they do respond to multiple different needs in a difficult under-resourced environment. That they have training and experience that informs their actions. Why assume they arent working effectively and with children's needs at the heart of their teaching?
Maybe you might reflect on how assuming teachers individual attitudes and behaviour is the root cause of disruption makes them feel when they are trying their best to give your kids an education? It can be easy to be an armchair critic.

I have asked students, especially the disruptive ones.

I get "I don't care" or "I don't know" or "I just hate school" or "nothing makes it better". I've also had "it's easier than doing the work" or "I like Mr so and so because he's strict". Probably loads more but I've forgotten.

They fall into 2 camps, apathetic about education (majority ime) or they enjoy rules and routines (which "strict" classrooms have).

I have to say the lessons your child described don't sound brilliant. I'd be frustrated at a teacher allowing time for messing about and only knuckling down at set points. I'm all for having a sense of humour etc but to actively allow lack of work (apart from in specific circumstances) seems a bit off to me. I'd wait to results day before judging the "best". Even then, results aren't the perfect indicator.

Adjacent - children's services (not front line but have worked from entry level up to SLT) with a focus over the years on all aspects including SEND, lots of work with some really good heads, deputy heads, SENCOs and DSLs, both at conference level and individually as well as groups of children and young people.

I have direct experience of managing inspections on behalf of childrens services (SEND and social care) and have been involved in school and early years inspection planning. I've also been involved in consultations and development of inspection frameworks and have worked very closely with a number of former inspectors

I've done a significant amount of detailed analysis on data relating to education, health and care outcomes so have a thorough understanding of 'what good looks like' when it comes to outcomes for children.

I've sat on IEB (interim governance boards) for schools in special measures and sit on a trustee board for a charity with a focus on Early Years education and which runs forums for other children's charities.

I've also been involved in a number of regional national policy and decision groups.

My son is a secondary teacher. He loves the pupils, the pupils love him but he is thinking of packing it in due to - guess what? PARENTS.

Not all parents obviously, but reading this thread, I now get it.

Never read such (boring) guff from armchair critics like this in my life.

The arrogance is astonishing.

Not one of you could do it.

You all have far too much time in your collective, long winded, boring hands.

In the nicest possible way, none of that replicates the reality of being in the classroom.

I've done similar roles (not on such a high level) and the only reason I know what I know is from multiple years of classroom experience.

Data relating to education is always numbers and ignores the words and context behind the data.

So you haven't taught. I knew that.

Do you realise you use far too many words to say a simple thing? I don't think I've read a whole post of yours because they are mainly about how much better you are than professional teachers who are on the coal face.

Arrogance personified imo.