What exactly is the strictness in English schools actually achieving?

[WaitAMinutePlease]

I’ve been on Mumsnet for years and one thing that genuinely puzzles me is how strict many English schools seem to be.

The thread today about the little boy with severe leg pain, and his mum asked if he could temporarily leave school at 1.30pm instead of 3.30pm because he’s struggling physically. The school apparently refused and said they wouldn’t “release” him. (Sorry? You won’t ‘release’ MY child??? WTAF!)

I see similar threads all the time. Parents being threatened with fines over attendance, children not being allowed time off for family holidays, requests for flexibility being refused, schools insisting on attendance despite medical issues that are still being investigated, and so on.

I’m Irish, and honestly this feels ridiculous to me. Irish schools are generally much more pragmatic. If a child was struggling with a health issue, even one that hadn’t yet been formally diagnosed, most schools would work with the parents. Reduced hours, work sent home, flexibility around attendance, none of that would seem remotely controversial. Equally, while schools don’t encourage term-time holidays, taking children out of school for a family holiday isn’t generally treated as some major disciplinary issue.

What I don’t understand is what the strictness is actually achieving. Ireland has a higher proportion of students progressing to third-level education than England by a mile (approx 76% vs 46%), so it’s not obvious to me that a highly punitive attendance culture produces better educational outcomes.

So my question is: why are English schools like this?

Is it government pressure? Ofsted? League tables? Funding linked to attendance? Or is it actually genuinely believed that this level of strictness benefits children?

Turn up to your lesson on time?
Do the work?
Behave in a way that means that other kids can learn?

All uniform rules are stupid for a start

And yet the polling shows that parents want uniforms.

You have stated an opinion, not a fact.

Well its factual that lack of uniform doesn't negatively impact learning or behaviour as all the countries that don't have uniforms show so the rules are pointless, therefore stupid as they just add conflict. Doesn't matter if most British parents want them, that doesn't make them not stupid.

That attitude some parents have to teachers on this thread is very sad and depressing.

Did you know that on non-school uniform days, absence increases as there are some children who don't want to attend school in their own clothes?

I think most parents do want uniforms because it’s handy not to think about what the kids wear every day and there’s less pressure on parents and kids to get the ‘right’ brands for school etc.

No need for uniforms to be expensive/crested ones though and no need to insist on uncomfortable uniforms, eg blazers in hot weather, ties, particular shoes etc.
Our school allows black trainers and doesn’t have blazers at least. Their sports gear is expensive though. I don’t see why I should need to pay €25 for a crested PE tee shirt etc.

I’m not in favour of uniforms. Although I could be persuaded either way. However, I am an adult and know that some things aren’t worth causing a fuss over and some rules need to be followed to make things run smoothly. Yes - DD doesn’t like wearing it, but it is hardly worth making a big deal about. There are things worth arguing about (& I do in appropriate ways). Being asked to put a tie on isn’t really high on my list.
Students and parents if they were really wanted uniform changed/abolished could campaign to the governors and SLT. However, many parents support it and most kids/parents would fall into the ambivalent or can’t be arsed categories. This is an appropriate response if you feel strongly about it. Not for example having a massive strop because a teacher asks you to put a tie on.

I think many modern UK schools are overwhelming for children from a sensory perspective. They're built like office blocks, noisy, busy corridors, crowded classrooms, a lack of outdoor, green space, a lack of ventilation, uncomfortable uniforms made of synthetic fibres, too hot for most of the year. It's a very stressful environment, often lacking in calming sensory input, and there are many children who can't cope with this and it's reflected in their behaviour.

Despite having ADHD (undiagnosed at the time), I coped quite well at school, but when I look back, my school had many features which a lot of modern secondary schools seem to lack. The main building was a crumbling Victorian block with poor insulation and draughts. It may have been freezing in winter, but having ADHD meant I always ran hot anyway and it was nice and cool in summer. A lot of lessons were taught in portacabins sprinkled through the school grounds which meant a brisk 5 minute walk between lessons. There were very few crowded corridors and lots of outdoor space and grass. It was quite a calming environment compared to the glass and concrete edifice that replaced it.

Could education be improved for everyone including SEND students with more financial investment?
Yes. We could have better buildings, more planning time for teachers, more specialist support, more diverse KS4 pathways etc. etc.
Do the British public want to pay more tax & invest more in education?
Take a look at any MN thread about taxation policy …..

Things could be better for students and teachers. However, any significant improvements need money.

& as someone who went to secondary school in the 80s and early 90s I think rose tinted views about the past including attitudes and support for SEND students are totally misplaced.
I went to an overcrowded comprehensive where you literally couldn’t move in some corridor bottle necks. Some teachers were still throwing stuff at kids and thinking about the language they used makes me wince. We used to run to some classrooms as there weren’t enough chairs (I’m not joking - although sometimes wasting a lesson ‘looking’ for a chair was appealing). The past was not some promised land.

I laughed so hard reading this bilge. 🤣🤣🤣

You've obviously been taken in by the lies about level playing fields. It simply isn’t true and never has been. I say this as someone who wore a hated school uniform back in the 1970’s in a poor mining area.

Polyester blazers and hand me downs for the poor kids. Nothing’s changed. 🤷🏻‍♀️

The idea that binning uniform will create some compliant utopia is also bollocks.

I’ve got a mate who teaches in a state school without uniform up North. Sure he doesn’t spend his time getting kids to put blazers on anymore. He spends it trying to get kids to put lanyards on.

You're as bad as the poster you're agreeing with. I didn't say "teacher" anyway. You do realise there are different types of staff in schools?

Iif uniform rules are the biggest gripe then things are generally ok

Yes they have. Parents get footwear and clothing grants if they are on low incomes.

Yes - that's exactly the point.

You are right, many parents don't respect schools so therefore their children have that attitude. Up to the end of Primary School the biggest influence on childrens views is their parents. From secondary school onwards it is their friends and teachers.

If children start secondary with a lack of respect they have learned by mirroring their parents, how on earth do you expect the cycle to be broken by forced compliance?

The way to break the cycle is to demonstrate mutual respect so that the kids see it as a better way. Teachers have the opportunity to break the cycle by working with the kids to change their views.

I massively respect teachers and fully understand that many struggle to teach in a way that they know would be more effective because they are working in a system which is underfunded and fundamentally broken both from a policy perspective and a societal attitude to their profession.

In my professional life I use my position where I can to raise these issues and help drive local school decisions and have some influence on national policy where I can within my sectors.

However, having respect for a profession and some individuals within that profession does not mean not challenging things that I don't agree with, nor does it mean backing the school up 100% when they are wrong or are failing my children.

I have brought my children up to work within the rules even if they don't agree with them but to use their voices to change things through appropriate channels. They have seen how I make enquiries to the school if there is an issue, in a professional and polite manner which recognises two sides to the story and is not going in 'all guns blazing'.

If they think a rule is unfair or counter productive, I've taught them that don't raise it in the classroom, they raise it by joining school councils or speaking to pastoral staff. They make their argument coherently and that it should never just be on the basis that they think it is unfair without solid reasons why.

I've taught them that there are some things that they can't change and they should just suck up and to pick their battles and to understand what is just 'noise' and what is a fundamental fairness issue - hence both of them having raised teacher behaviour issues relating to the humiliation of their classmates.

Teachers are beaten down by years of abuse, but that isn't going to change by perpetuating the abuse cycle.

Is that throughout the UK? I’ve never heard of this in England.

I don't know. I'm Scotland. Our pupils also still get EMA if they want to stay on to do highers but have a family on a low income.

Just googled it. English parents only get one if their council agrees to pay it.

Except it absolutely is - it is the history teacher and is my DDs favourite teacher

We were chatting the other day and I asked her about why she thought this teacher could control the class and get the work done when others can't.

She said that the classroom was really relaxed and they sometimes messed about (with the teacher chatting to them etc) but when the teacher told them to be quiet and knuckle down to work, everyone did, even the usual disrupters.

I asked her why she thought that worked so well - she didn't know but she did say that this teacher is younger - only mid-20's. Not NQT, but closer to age in age to the class so seems to 'get' them more.

The other teacher that gets a lot of his classes is a maths teacher - in his 40's but again, treats the kids like people. His biggest bugbear is enforcing some of the petty rules in his classroom like needing to ask permission to take off their blazers if they are hot - so he tells them they can do so without asking in his classroom as long as they are quiet because it is better than having 30 kids disrupt teaching to ask permission. I have had this conversation with him first hand - not hearsay through the kids.

He doesn't have the same innate generational understanding that the younger teacher has, so he can come across as trying a bit too hard to be 'down with the kids' which mean some of the younger years find him annoying but even then, they behave in his lessons and he gets the best out of them which is visible in his pupils test and exam scores.

You aren't even in the classroom and you presume that you can overrule the experience of people who are, and in far more classes than this couple that you have cherry-picked.

I have the utmost respect for teachers. This is not an issue with teachers. It’s a problem with (generally new in post) heads that feel the need to assert their authority in the most petty ways, and take up precious teacher time enforcing ridiculous rules and providing detentions for infractions.

Yes of course every child should come equipped with a pen, but what I’m talking about are the examples I gave upthread. Handing out detentions for having 2 instead of 3 blue biros, pushing up blazer sleeves or taking the blazer off in the summer without permission, wearing 60 instead of 30 denier tights... I just can’t fathom how the time taken monitoring and punishing this sort of thing really helps anyone.

What I post on here to other adults and how I talk to my child and their friends about school rules and policies are quite different by the way.

Statistically non-english speaking children (EAL) struggle more up to year 6 SATs but perform better at GCSE and A-Level than their English speaking counterparts.

Overall the average attainment 8 score is 46, for EAL children it is 48.5, for non-EAL it is 45.6

Similar for 5 GCSEs grades 9-5 inc English and Maths. Overall it is 45.4%, EAL is 48.2% and for non-EAL it is 44.9%.

Educationally they are fine, it is the pastoral care that schools need to receive more funding and support to provide.

There are some quite clearly ludicrous rules on this thread. I think the worst is asking permission to remove your blazer. I make a point at the start of the year of telling all my kids they don’t need to ask. Just do it if you want. A school near me brought in a rule that tights had to be worn all year. Thankfully not my dc school as I would have challenged this. Thing is these rules are brought in by SLT who very often hide away in offices and don’t actually appreciate the difficulty of trying to enforce a silly rule. There are some things though that are not silly rules. Any rule that is connected to productive learning and safety is important.