What exactly is the strictness in English schools actually achieving?

[WaitAMinutePlease]

I’ve been on Mumsnet for years and one thing that genuinely puzzles me is how strict many English schools seem to be.

The thread today about the little boy with severe leg pain, and his mum asked if he could temporarily leave school at 1.30pm instead of 3.30pm because he’s struggling physically. The school apparently refused and said they wouldn’t “release” him. (Sorry? You won’t ‘release’ MY child??? WTAF!)

I see similar threads all the time. Parents being threatened with fines over attendance, children not being allowed time off for family holidays, requests for flexibility being refused, schools insisting on attendance despite medical issues that are still being investigated, and so on.

I’m Irish, and honestly this feels ridiculous to me. Irish schools are generally much more pragmatic. If a child was struggling with a health issue, even one that hadn’t yet been formally diagnosed, most schools would work with the parents. Reduced hours, work sent home, flexibility around attendance, none of that would seem remotely controversial. Equally, while schools don’t encourage term-time holidays, taking children out of school for a family holiday isn’t generally treated as some major disciplinary issue.

What I don’t understand is what the strictness is actually achieving. Ireland has a higher proportion of students progressing to third-level education than England by a mile (approx 76% vs 46%), so it’s not obvious to me that a highly punitive attendance culture produces better educational outcomes.

So my question is: why are English schools like this?

Is it government pressure? Ofsted? League tables? Funding linked to attendance? Or is it actually genuinely believed that this level of strictness benefits children?

Yes, bad behaviour didn't exist in schools before those pesky brown and black children arrived. God give me strength! The racism that people are happy to spout these days is astonishing. Having gone to an entirely white school, bar me, I can assure you that plenty of atrocious behaviour comes from white children. Generally, the issue is children from deprived backgrounds where their parents don't give a damn about education or about disciplining their children. They know their children are wee shits, but god forbid anyone who points that out or tries to discipline them.

No. He was not going to talk back at all. As most kids would say something like sorry miss and move on. The fact I say oh no you didn’t have one last time means last time I gave John a pen without any comment. It’s been pointed out repeatedly that expecting a kid to a) have a pen and b) not be rude to the teacher is not unreasonable at all. Also it isn’t just the pen - any perfectly reasonable request or comment can turn into an issue. The vast majority of kids are polite and respectful. Some are not. Sometimes there is a reason that is understandable but sometimes it’s because their parents haven’t raised them properly. Most kids at my school never have a detention. It’s a small minority.
And of course I’m going to help s kid with ADHD look up his timetable because that’s not his fault. You seem determined to project something on the scenario I have posted. I know exactly what kind of kid I’m referring to.
FWIW I have an excellent relationship with my pupils, have huge uptake for my non compulsory subject at GCSE and always get results in my subject that are higher than the national average by some way.

@Carriemac A teacher who worked in a Deis school was telling me that asylum seekers that had arriving 2 years ago were now pushing up their overall standardised test scores.

Anyway Ireland’s education system has been improving recently- not going downhill probably because of systemic changes and nothing to do with immigration.

I’m really sorry I didn’t mean that non Irish kids were more badly behaved far from it. we have many examples of asylum seekers children doing extremely well despite their challenges . I just meant that adding often traumatised non English speaking kids who maybe having housing challenges , missing parents etc adds to the challenges in the school . This is directly from my relative who teaches in the school I really apologise if it sounded racist that was not my intention at all.

You must be one of the parents that school staff dread phoning the school.

Why would a teacher dread phoning a parent that talks about respecting each other and not breaking children's spirit with draconian rules and regulations.

It already been brought up on this thread that some of the top state schools do not have the draconian rules and regulations, so it's not to do with attainment of academic success. If the teachers want to enforce these rules then possibly they need to look at what it is achieving, is it actually achieving the behaviour they want or are they still dealing with behaviour they don't like

Because they’re busy. They probably have a list of whose turn it is to listen to her bore on telling professionals how to do a job they’ve never did themselves.

Oh that hurt!😢

True though.

The one teacher I remember who could always keep my class under control (same class that the ofsted inspector was one of the worst he'd ever seen) was rather like that but with a good dose of scary added in. On our first day we were unruly outside the classroom waiting for her, she arrived and proper shouted at us, stunned us into silence. Then we went into the classroom and she revealed her funny, kind side, had us collaborate on class rules and made us all laugh and from then on she was friendly and lighthearted but we all knew she could be strict and scary so didn't play up for her. The one time a boy made a comment that crossed the line she made him stand up and repeat after her an apology, and he didn't do it again in her class. One of my favourite teachers.

Yes, a friend is a teacher and has a number of Ukrainian students who arrived very traumatised and with no English. They’ve settled well but it was difficult all round and still is for those children.

The only model I have is my memory of the best teachers in my school when I was growing up. And when I say 'best', I mean the ones who enabled pupils to reach their potential (whatever it was), commanded good behaviour and were well liked. I do think respect is earned, and I agree that goes both ways. My school was an inner city comp, complete with its fair share of challenges. We didn't get behaviour points for not having a pen. Detentions - for anything - were few and far between. Bad behaviour did exist. But equally, teachers seemed to understand teens, got the balance right. Punishments were reserved for the worst offences - and offenders. We had excellent teachers who started lessons with something light. They voiced opinions and encouraged polite, respectful debate when others disagreed. There were rules of engagement we all respected. We had a laugh, were allowed to talk about music or football as long as the work was completed first. We felt like we were treated like adults-in-training rather than children to be spoken down to. Rules were consistent, and consistently applied. When our English teacher said "right guys, I've upheld my side of the bargain, it's time to lock in now" we listened - because we liked and respected him. Because he seemed to like and respect us. Did kids ever get sent out of the classroom, or shouted at? Of course they did. But the other children were more likely to say to him/ her: "Why the hell did you behave like that to Mr K? He's a good teacher and you pissed him off."

Now I'm a mum to a 15yo boy and he says exactly the same. Respect is earned, not demanded. Whether you're and adult or a teenager.

Oh come on, don’t say that, I’m devastated - inconsolable, you’re such a meanie!🙄

I mean, it's so untrue that it's not even funny. Some people have no idea.

When our English teacher said "right guys, I've upheld my side of the bargain, it's time to lock in now" we listened - because we liked and respected him. Because he seemed to like and respect us. Did kids ever get sent out of the classroom, or shouted at? Of course they did.

It's bizarre. You claim that kids always behaved for this excellent teacher and then in the next breath admit that they didn't always behave for this excellent teacher and he had to implement sanctions. (As an aside, a teacher who shouted at the kids these days would be a 'shouty teacher' who 'terrifies the kids')

As shown in these comments a LOT of adults here don't like children, or childish behaviour so they like the idea of controlling a child to the point of being a mini adult, obedient and neat

You really are insufferable.

I'm a teacher because I enjoy working with children.

Would you consider expecting a pupil to bring a pen to school and to follow reasonable instructions be 'controlling a child to the point of being a mini adult, obedient and neat'?

Teachers aren't the only people who are busy

I went to bed. This thread exploded. First, as I (and many of the teachers on this thread) have acknowledged some school implement rules that micromanage trivial aspects of school life (sock colour etc. etc. etc.) Many, many, schools do not. My DD’s school allows trainers, hair dye and make up. Detention and isolation are not jumped to for minor first offences. Staff are encouraged to talk to students quietly and respectfully (source - behaviour policy) and the vast majority do (source my DD). Teaching is focused. Academic debate is encouraged where appropriate. So is bad behaviour unheard of in this environment? No.
Let me give you an example of what teachers are dealing with. Early in Y7 DD was in history. The teacher looked out of the window and saw an older pupil roaming around. Teacher ‘Bob you need to be in your lesson. Where should you be?’ Bob ‘Fuck off.’ Bob runs off. Teacher is now on her walky talky reporting Bob to pastoral who will have to go and find him.
I don’t think petty rules will help, but poor disrespectful behaviour is not solely caused by petty rules. I respect the school and the teachers doing a great job in difficult circumstances. My DD is getting a good education despite a minority of defiant & disruptive students. The teachers keep at it despite facing abuse. They are human - yes sometimes they might be a bit snappy or sound pissed off. That is life.
Some of you sound naive to be frank.
Throwing around things like teachers ‘can’t be arsed’ etc. give me strength. There are plenty of secondary shortage subjects. Maybe you’d like to step up and show us all how it is done.

Parents who continually call a school and take people away from their work obvously aren't.

Well if the only rule was bringing a pen to school things would be very easy but we know it’s not - there’s a very long list of stupid rules.

teachers dreading making a phone call clearly aren't busy

How have you extrapolated this?

Schools (like any place with lots of people) need rules. Adult workplaces have rules, events have rules, entire countries have rules (laws). Not sure what is so shocking about rules being enforced.

Name a few stupid rules.