What exactly is the strictness in English schools actually achieving?

[WaitAMinutePlease]

I’ve been on Mumsnet for years and one thing that genuinely puzzles me is how strict many English schools seem to be.

The thread today about the little boy with severe leg pain, and his mum asked if he could temporarily leave school at 1.30pm instead of 3.30pm because he’s struggling physically. The school apparently refused and said they wouldn’t “release” him. (Sorry? You won’t ‘release’ MY child??? WTAF!)

I see similar threads all the time. Parents being threatened with fines over attendance, children not being allowed time off for family holidays, requests for flexibility being refused, schools insisting on attendance despite medical issues that are still being investigated, and so on.

I’m Irish, and honestly this feels ridiculous to me. Irish schools are generally much more pragmatic. If a child was struggling with a health issue, even one that hadn’t yet been formally diagnosed, most schools would work with the parents. Reduced hours, work sent home, flexibility around attendance, none of that would seem remotely controversial. Equally, while schools don’t encourage term-time holidays, taking children out of school for a family holiday isn’t generally treated as some major disciplinary issue.

What I don’t understand is what the strictness is actually achieving. Ireland has a higher proportion of students progressing to third-level education than England by a mile (approx 76% vs 46%), so it’s not obvious to me that a highly punitive attendance culture produces better educational outcomes.

So my question is: why are English schools like this?

Is it government pressure? Ofsted? League tables? Funding linked to attendance? Or is it actually genuinely believed that this level of strictness benefits children?

That's quite detailed information you have on your dd's secondary school, I'm amazed - how did you access this information at such a detailed level?

I recall someone in my history class being asked to leave the class as they'd forgotten their GCSE notes - the teacher threw an absolute hissy fit - how dare the student show up to her class without being properly prepared and not even apologise! She banned the student from attending her class until she got an apology.
Reality was the teacher often threw a hissy fit - everyone was terrified of her - especially when she had a hangover (we were all aware of her mood when she wore sunglasses). It was not a surprise to any of us that the student had not approached her to apologise as there would have been a blood bath!!! The student's parent's stood their ground and would not allow their dd to apologise and we were all very impressed, the teacher had to back down and allow the return of the student who was then deliberately ignored. Same teacher had congratulated my mother on parents evening on finally having a child she liked (she taught my 3 sisters) that was me! 😂She was an absolute tyrant - some people should not be allowed near children. She was a bright woman but she was an absolute bitch of a teacher.

Part of the reason more children go to uni in Ireland than uk is because it's free/very low cost, not necessarily because the education is better.

I have told my girls they should strongly considee going to uni in Ireland (DH is Irish) as free/cheap.

I think one important difference between schools in the UK and in other European countries is their size and students' age.
In continental Europe it much more common to separate schools for children that are 15-19. This means that schools are much smaller (e.g. in Poland average high school size is ~350 and in the UK it is close to 1000), but also the age range is smaller, which probably makes it easier in terms of range of issues that teachers and staff have to tackle.

I talk to my 14 year old DD? I read the letters & info sent out about attendance & behaviour policy? I chat with friends who also have kids there. I see students leaving on the rare occasions I pick her up after sports clubs. Make-up, hair dye & trainers are definetely fine at her school :-). She is quite open about behaviour and sanctions. She has friends who sometimes dont come in - they have special input to try & improve their attendance She could be missing things (quite likely) or lying about some stuff (not sure why, but possible), but we talk quite openly about school & gets loads of info about behaviour & attendance policies. Im sure I dont know everything, but im sure it isnt a punitive zero tolerance environment like some of the schools described on mumsnet.

So in contrast to this my DD recently forgot her french exercise book. She had taken it home to revise & not brought it back. Teacher told her to remember to bring it back in & was mildly annoyed - told her not to forget it in future or there would be consequences. She did the work on paper, stuck it in in the next lesson. No detentions, no drama.

We are a nanny state and it's getting worse and worse.

Today's news is the government want x% of children walking to school by [date].

heaven forbid parents parent.

That is the issue, teachers being held responsible for the failings of students. Here students are responsible for their own grades, if they fail they face the consequences.

You are assuming that giving the kid a pen is the solution to the no pen problem,

I'm your 'ideal teacher' here. A couple of months ago I bought a massive box of pens out of my own money. I've got about a half of them left. I lend pens out every lesson. I wasn't getting them back so now I write the name of the students I lend them to on the board. And at the start of the lesson, I have Tom asking for a pen so I get him a pen, give him the pen, write his name on the board. Then Harry says he also needs a pen, same again. Then ten minutes later I notice that Bob hasn't done any work. 'I don't have a pen'. So I go back to my desk, get another pen, bring it back, then tell him to do some work. Then I forget to write Bob's name on the board, and my pen is never seen again.

Then at the end of the lesson I have to chase Tom and Harry for my pens back. And during all this time I could have been teaching.

And then another teacher uses my classroom, lends out a whole bunch of my pens that I bought out of my own money, and they just disappear into the ether.

Do you know what would solve this? A slight bit of according to you 'unnecessary conflict' that meant that those kids brought their own fucking pens.

I have twins - they were in the same class. They both did the homework. Dd accidentally picked up ds’s homework and brought it into school, ds clearly forgot to bring his homework. Dd had to do an afterschool detention. I think the more annoying thing for dd was that at the start of the year the teacher had promised to give them all one chance at forgetting their homework - he did not give dd that chance on the very last week of A level teaching, despite her saying it was the first time she had ever not brought in her homework. He emailed me to explain her detention, I replied in a polite but not very supportive way! Not surprising the teacher didn’t show up for the detention. There’s some good ones - buts there’s still plenty of petty shites.

So, half my class was missing today with mysterious illnesses, and several others were openly admitting to a mere 2h sleep because they were watching the world cup last night. I'm not even exaggerating - 13 missing in a GCSE class of 24 and two trying to sleep. I wonder how that will figure into my progress rates, which can affect pay progression. This is not an isolated incident. Here in England, school has been seen as optional pretty much since Covid - hence the strict rules.

To the PP suggesting we give out pens - that's all well and good. Until you ask for the new pen back at the end of the lesson and get it back in pieces, if at all. Taking pens apart, smearing the ink everywhere, pushing the pen into paper until it explodes are all favourites. Here in England we give out pens, coloured pens, rulers, pencils, rubbers - all for free and watching them get destroyed daily. A box of 50 pens lasts me 6 weeks. Kids don't value what they get given for free. Books get defaced, writing books have pages and pages torn out of them. I had to buy my own when I was at school abroad. They were neat and kept that way because I understood their value. Primary schools around here now don't allow kids to bring in their own pencil cases to get around the issue (and that of theft and arguments), meaning kids are even less prepared for secondary school.

And of course it is disruptive. Lesson 1 today. I start the lesson (having handed out materials to students at the start, then pens to those who asked). I have 2 students coming in late. I needed to register them. Both need to be given their class materials, then one asks for a pen. Repeated again as soon as I had everyone settled with another 3 coming in late. And then again a third time when the last few sauntered in. 10mins of my lesson - 17% - lost to lateness and pens alone. That's a daily thing.

@ThrallsWife But you only had half your class show up - so the strict rules are not working in your school.
The relationship between the school, the pupils and the parents is absolutely broken - they are all exhausted by them. When my kids were at school it felt like every email I got from the school was about another pointless crap rule. The rule that caused me to block the HT was when she gleefully announced that she was allowing kids with an afro to have a fade (that must have been 5 kids in the entire school) because she was being modern and inclusive. She then proceeded to detail exactly how short each section of the fade could be in millimetres and if it didn't meet her or any teachers expectations and they would not discuss or be challenged on the measurement and that child would be put in isolation until their hair grew. What a way to communicate to people, still it didn't surprise me - that was what we expected - I had had enough - she was power crazy.

Impossible for your kids to learn respect when it only goes one way.

Sorry OP, I haven’t read the full thread, but just to say that school refusal (or emotionally based school avoidance as it’s often called) is certainly not ‘alien’ to Ireland. It’s a growing problem, especially since Covid, and rates are higher than they’ve ever been.

My own DS dropped out well before Covid, he was in primary school at the time and never returned. He has autism and other issues and unfortunately we couldn’t find anywhere he was adequately supported. He had a breakdown and never went back.

There are articles in our papers every year about how Irish schools are letting down those with SN…about children without school places as well as those who find it too difficult to attend. There was a huge outcry earlier this year when the Dept tried to cut down on SNA support in mainstream schools. They stepped back from doing this but SN education is still a huge mess with many children not being able to access the curriculum effectively.

I think you’re lucky if this is not on your radar re Irish schools. The debacle over SNA provision earlier this year was hugely upsetting for many families.

I’m not aware of research proving this, but maybe you do? All the research I’ve seen is pretty inconclusive or mixed.

I guess it depends what your background is. If people are from a military background or have to wear uniform for work, I guess they see uniform as part of the world of work. However, in most professional workplaces, there’s no uniform. So, IMHO the sooner young people learn to choose appropriate clothing for themselves, the better.

IMHO, brogues and blazers are not appropriate dress for 11 year old children, who should be encouraged to exercise outside during breaks. Research shows uniform can cause a gender disparity in exercise: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy3vnr5yllo.

As I said earlier, most European countries don’t have school uniform in state schools. So, it’s certainly not essential for behaviour, any more than it is in most workplaces.

As for creating a level playing field, I wholly disagree with that. The huge cost of uniform is prohibitive for many families, as numerous research studies have shown. Often, there’s only one supplier of the branded items, so they have a monopoly. Affluent pupils have expensive shoes and new items as they grow, whereas poorer kids don’t and have to come to school in ill-fitting and tatty hand-me-downs. If the objective of uniform is to create a level playing field, surely schools should provide them for free.

The majority of parents in England want school uniforms.

Well they must find a way to make it work in my country because schools are legally obliged to provide all necessary equipment for learning. My DD tells me in upper school they get given a pencil at the start of the year and hasn't experienced anyone kicking up a fuss about forgetting theirs (and her class isn't exactly well behaved so its not an unusually compliant group)

Everyone knows who the poor kids are - we did at school and I recently asked ds did he know who the poor kids were at his school and he did too - it's not a level playing field - that must be a certain kind of adult's view of the world. Getting kids to wear their own clothes would mean parents didn't have to buy two sets for each growing child.
Jeans and a t shirt and a sweatshirt isn't beyond any parent, easy to pick up at Primark/supermarket/second hand shop and easy to continue wearing outside school. Same with shoes, parents should only have to buy one pair. Not a school pair and an out of school pair.

Do they really? And do they want the expensive branded school uniforms and the over the top rules like velcro shoes looking too much like trainers, when no other bloody school shoe will fit a child's difficult foot.

At my eldest DC’s academy, there were more kids in ‘isolation’ than there were in the classroom.

Obviously uniforms shouldn’t be expensive.

I think it’s also the case that far too many school leavers go on to college in Ireland. It’s in many ways an extension of school at first, and I think this is a great disservice to students, encouraged to go on because the transition isnt that hair-raising.
I’ve always been against the (eternally popular) Irish system of not specialising for the Leaving cert as we did in GB for A Levels: it means you’ve students still unsure what they actually want to study at third level, going on to college for Law, say, and spending the first year either lost at sea in the subject, or wishing they had instead opted for History or Physics, etc.
The first year acts, in effect, as a sieve through which many students belatedly isolate the subject they actually shine in.

A complete waste of an important year, which in GB is intense study from day one, in a subject you'd already been honing for three years at school.

100% I also feel it’s important for kids to learn how to present themselves.

Schools seem fine with scuffed up, muddy shoes, tatty clothing and greasy hair, as long as the uniform rules are met. Some kids (including from affluent families) look a right state.

As you say, it’s possible to dress and present very well on a tight budget, if you look after items (e.g. clean shoes) and know how to dress well. If schools are to teach anything about dress, IMHO that should be it. At my state comp in the 70s we were taught how to polish shoes, iron a shirt, sew on buttons etc. Every time I iron a shirt now, all those years later, I still think of how I was taught.

Well - you don't get much choice - most them are expensive!

For sport alone - we had to buy branded socks ffs - I think they were £14 a pair! A leotard for gymnastics, branded skort, branded sport's shirt, jogging bottoms, (you didn't need to buy the branded fleece or rain coat - but your child would have to do sport outside in the winter and the school didn't mind if they were cold and wet). Football boots, all white trainers - couldn't have a colour on them. Boys didn't have to wear the leotard but they had to have a rugby shirt - the branded school t shirt wasn't appropriate - look I'm boring myself with this list...so I'm not going into the daft every day shit they expected the kids to have, it's not surprising the pen gets missed out when the uniform always seems so much more important that education and no we couldn't chose another school - the schools got together and agreed on all this shit - they were very proud of their consortium.

Quite a few years back we went to the PwC Christmas Party in Embarkment Place - it was that transitionary period where people wore suits most days and Friday's were dress down. What a bloody state the staff looked - dress code was smart casual - I'd seen them in a suit - that was easy dressing, hard to go wrong - but they massively failed at smart casual and if school wish to help students with their future sartorial choices - smart casual that would be a great place to start - because we ain't going back to suits in a hurry. But we all know it's nothing to do with preparing them for adult life - it's just another show of control that doesn't work.

A friend of mine's child recently started at secondary. Every morning they have an inspection to make sure they have the right number of the right colour biros. If they only have say 2 instead of 3 red biros they get a detention. Never mind the 2 they do have, or the [insert specified number of specified colour biros] that they do have. They have to wear a shirt and blazer regardless of the season, which means that they're freezing in the winter and boiling in the summer, because wearing a jumper underneath is detention-able, as is taking the blazer off. It's utterly bonkers. How on earth is that supporting learning or preparing anyone for work? No workplace operates like that! The anxiety that it's created in a child about going to school and getting things wrong is off the scale. And that child loved school before this.

I was at secondary school in the 80s and 90s. I went to the local grammar and had friends at the secondary moderns. My school was fairly relaxed about uniform, hair colour, make-up, jewellery etc., whereas the sec moderns were super strict about things like that. Wildly different expectations based on factors not remotely to do with intelligence/capability. Just about embedding compliance.