What exactly is the strictness in English schools actually achieving?

[WaitAMinutePlease]

I’ve been on Mumsnet for years and one thing that genuinely puzzles me is how strict many English schools seem to be.

The thread today about the little boy with severe leg pain, and his mum asked if he could temporarily leave school at 1.30pm instead of 3.30pm because he’s struggling physically. The school apparently refused and said they wouldn’t “release” him. (Sorry? You won’t ‘release’ MY child??? WTAF!)

I see similar threads all the time. Parents being threatened with fines over attendance, children not being allowed time off for family holidays, requests for flexibility being refused, schools insisting on attendance despite medical issues that are still being investigated, and so on.

I’m Irish, and honestly this feels ridiculous to me. Irish schools are generally much more pragmatic. If a child was struggling with a health issue, even one that hadn’t yet been formally diagnosed, most schools would work with the parents. Reduced hours, work sent home, flexibility around attendance, none of that would seem remotely controversial. Equally, while schools don’t encourage term-time holidays, taking children out of school for a family holiday isn’t generally treated as some major disciplinary issue.

What I don’t understand is what the strictness is actually achieving. Ireland has a higher proportion of students progressing to third-level education than England by a mile (approx 76% vs 46%), so it’s not obvious to me that a highly punitive attendance culture produces better educational outcomes.

So my question is: why are English schools like this?

Is it government pressure? Ofsted? League tables? Funding linked to attendance? Or is it actually genuinely believed that this level of strictness benefits children?

IMO schools are strict because they force in to being strict.
It used to be that if a pupil got told off by the school/teacher you would get told off when you got home.
Now if you tell a child off, there are many parents that are straight on the phone moaning that their child has done no wrong or what is the school going to do about it.
This is not to say that the school/teacher gets it rright 100% of teh time but there is now a disconnect between the schools and parents with the parents not taking responsibility for their children or trying to blame someone or something else.

@Owlbookend you’re so right that in a way schools are between a rock and a hard place. Because as a doctor growing up in a middle class family I absolutely want my child to achieve well academically and to some degree will be judging a school on their results. However I also genuinely do want a more holistic approach with less focus on exams. I just think schools used to tread this tricky line much more successfully.

But I also recognise that so much has changed, including much more top down pressure on grades and attendance, and proscriptive narrowing of the curriculum. My son has had some brilliant teachers, as did I back in the day. I do believe the difference is that my teachers had a lot more freedom to just teach without such heavy focus on grades and trying to cram in so much of a curriculum that there is no time or energy left over for creativity or covering non-core curriculum areas that are interesting to teachers or students or both.

I remember my amazing History teacher would often set a whole lesson aside for us to have an extended debate on a topic, including topical politics (even though we were never going to be examined on that), and we all loved it and were really engaged in the subject as a result. Or we’d maybe watch a semi-related movie - I’m not talking about Star Wars or whatever, more like a documentary about the Holocaust that wasn’t strictly necessary for the curriculum. But it not only made us more engaged in learning but we genuinely had a broader than necessary background knowledge or specific examples to draw on for essays etc in exams, so I believe it did also help with our grades.

@Differentforgirls ah yeah, of course you’re right about OFSTED. It’s such a nightmare it’s easy to forget it doesn’t hold it’s deathly grip over all 4 corners of the UK! Though there must be something similar elsewhere (albeit I think not quite so draconian) as my sister is a teacher in Scotland and was talking about a big inspection stressing everyone out. Not OFSTED level stress though!

@FrippEnos i’m not sure it’s that different here in Ireland. When I was at school the teachers, were basically gods and my parents wouldn’t be questioning them.

But it is all different now. There is still a lot of respect for teachers but not like before.

You are overlooking the fact that at the end of teh year the teacher is held resposnsible for the learning and grades of the pupils in their class, and that is one of the major reasons that schools in England are having issues.

Yes it's the Inspectorate here!

So many things but it comes down ultimately to shared core values, politeness and respect.

When there is no longer a common societal agreement and implicit code that upholds these things then we get problems.

Many things have contributed to this but two of these are:

First, that a large number of parents effectively believe that it is no longer their responsibility to bring up their children decently and they see that as the job of the school.

Second, that in circumstances where there is no longer a general consensus in society around acceptable models of behaviour, that is kids come into schools without any respect for their teachers, desire to learn etc, the only way schools can respond to that is to make rules about everything.

People used to accept the principles of give and take. Even children did. Now, primarily as the result of bad parenting (and their parenting), it's just take take take, an insistence on dubious "rights" and a bolshy, sulky, dislike of the consequent rules.

@Differentforgirls ah thanks! And to be fair my sister probably wouldn’t agree with me that she could have been any more stressed than she was then if it were OFSTED 😂 But as a GP I have had teachers coming to me more than once with suicidal ideation over OFSTED inspections, needing time off work to cope etc. Which really seems a step too far!

That really does.

Schools here get plenty of notice tbh. Still stressful for the staff but Inspectors were teachers so they're really quite friendly.

100% agree with you. Thank you for this post 👍

Irish summer holidays start weeks earlier than English schools so less need for a term time holiday?

Loads of people go on holidays in term time in Ireland because it’s cheaper and less hot.

We don’t have a May midterm, this would be a great time to go. But people going on holidays isn’t really the root of the problem with school attendance. I feel like the whole fining thing is a bit performative. The root of poor school attendance has to do with mental health and less value on going to school since the pandemic . It about patterns that happen over a long period of time, not taking your kid out for a trip.

Lots of people wear suit jackets which are practically the same thing. Most workplaces have a dress code and some an actual uniform. Uniform isn’t a bad thing, being smart and presentable in a professional setting (of which school is) should be promoted.

Are schools run by the national government in Ireland then?

I run a large medical room in a comprehensive. For 1600 pupils, my budget is £1000, which includes Emergency Inhalers and EpiPens. I work full time and see 50-60 pupils a day. The job has become impossible. I would love to spend some time talking to pupils, listening to them and giving them opportunities to vent, but there is little time.
I report safeguarding incidents most days.
Our GP parents tell me they wouldn’t do my job for all the money in the world and when I told one my salary, her reply was ‘ oh for Gods sake. Just leave. You cannot tolerate this’.
Parents expect me to be an A&E consultant, instructing me frequently about the failings of our school.
i spent many years as a senior sister in a surgical ward -that was easy compared to this. Budgets are so much higher in the NHS.
How do you as a GP help teens? Who do you refer them to? How much time do you spend with them?
Schools are in a crisis. My local GP practice is like a hotel in comparison.
Social media is a far bigger threat to students than schools. We genuinely do our best, but it needs to be a collective effort, starting with the parents.

Surely they are in England too but the LA administers them?

There are relatively few workplaces that require people to wear suits full time, unless they are client facing (and even then it's not necessarily viewed as essential). Dress codes now also are very wide ranging.

Uniforms are really pointless. People who have been in non-uniform schools manage perfectly well if they subsequently go into occupations requiring uniforms or very strict dress codes: it's not something you need practice in.

I work for an IAS service. I have children on my caseload who are now on Tier 4 CAMHs due to trauma linking back to draconian toilet policies.

The super strict policies do not work. When a child can end up suspended for forgetting equipment then what is the deterrent for worse crimes? They may as well go the whole hog if they are being suspended anyway.

We had 4 under 7s through this week permanently excluded, one being a 4 year old. All 4 clearly needed support, and instead have been pawns in arguments between schools and the LA.

And my own daughter's school has no uniform. The kids are comfortable. The kids learn well. The education has not declined because she goes to schools in a tshirt, jumper and leggings.

And most go to university in between anyway where anything goes dress wise.

I don’t know why everyone is making a big deal of pens.

When I was in primary school we were given pens. We didn’t take them home they just were the class pens in the middle of the table. Same for felt tips and pencils.

Secondary you had your own pens/ pencil case, calculator etc. But if someone forgot them it wasn’t a big deal.

I think students should be expected to remember a pen. But I also think they should be able to ask politely to borrow one (either from a friend/classmate or from the school supplies) and not be thrown into detention or isolation.

If you forget a pen at work, someone will lend you one.

Not meeting deadlines for homework is different as you have to respect the teacher's time - ie they may have planned to mark it on a certain day- and you also need to learn to meet deadlines for the workplace, so that is different and ultimately if someone isn't doing their homework, there should be consequences (though again, the homework should be meaningful and not just set for the sake of it or because the Tiger Mummies are demanding it).

Interesting that Irish parents take their kids on holiday in term time. Aren't Irish school holidays a lot longer than the holidays in the UK?

In England and Wales you get 13 weeks a year when you can take your kids away so that's one area where I am with the government. And package trips to Benidorm in the most expensive weeks aren't compulsory, there are plenty of cheaper options. However, there does need to be some common sense where people are restricted in when they can go away, eg if they are in the military.

Or, as an adult, if i remember I haven't got one i have the ability to nip to a shop quickly etc. We should not be penalising kids for forgetting, but instead encouraging them to use their common sense to fix the issue in the most appropriate way.

Nobody is thrown into detention or isolation at DD's school for politely requesting a pen. If you forget you ask a friend or if they dont have one ask a teacher. If it kept happening, the teacher would talk to you & there is a minor chance you might get a negative behaviour point. Like I said not all schools have these draconian policies. I also think schools need to supply a set of basic stationary where families cant afford it (as noted on tbe thread some schools supply this). However, ay DD's school there still is a basic expectation thst students will bring the stationary to lessons. There is a middle ground between teachers taking all the responsibility and supplying everything & frog marching kids to detention if they forget a pencil.