What exactly is the strictness in English schools actually achieving?

[WaitAMinutePlease]

I’ve been on Mumsnet for years and one thing that genuinely puzzles me is how strict many English schools seem to be.

The thread today about the little boy with severe leg pain, and his mum asked if he could temporarily leave school at 1.30pm instead of 3.30pm because he’s struggling physically. The school apparently refused and said they wouldn’t “release” him. (Sorry? You won’t ‘release’ MY child??? WTAF!)

I see similar threads all the time. Parents being threatened with fines over attendance, children not being allowed time off for family holidays, requests for flexibility being refused, schools insisting on attendance despite medical issues that are still being investigated, and so on.

I’m Irish, and honestly this feels ridiculous to me. Irish schools are generally much more pragmatic. If a child was struggling with a health issue, even one that hadn’t yet been formally diagnosed, most schools would work with the parents. Reduced hours, work sent home, flexibility around attendance, none of that would seem remotely controversial. Equally, while schools don’t encourage term-time holidays, taking children out of school for a family holiday isn’t generally treated as some major disciplinary issue.

What I don’t understand is what the strictness is actually achieving. Ireland has a higher proportion of students progressing to third-level education than England by a mile (approx 76% vs 46%), so it’s not obvious to me that a highly punitive attendance culture produces better educational outcomes.

So my question is: why are English schools like this?

Is it government pressure? Ofsted? League tables? Funding linked to attendance? Or is it actually genuinely believed that this level of strictness benefits children?

Natsku

noblegiraffe has highlighted the issue and the only thing that she has missed out is the* *fuckwittery around not having a pen.
Whilst its true that most pupils quietly ask their friends or the teacher far too many turn it in to a massive drama, huffying around the room, just getting a pen off the person in the furthest place away from them.
Or encouraging them to throw the equipment to them.
And its not just the pupils that 'forget' to hand the pen back, after all if they took the pen they should have it not only for their next lesson but the next one with you, but they rarely do. Its the willful destruction of property that the teacher has had to pay for.
I once calculated the amount of money that I was spending on stationary for other people's children. It came to several hundreds of pounds per school year.

I forgot about all that shit too! Winter shirt with tie had to be tucked in or detention and summer shirt with no tie wasn't allowed to be tucked in or they got detention and the bloody coloured pens, then the make-up, dd had a birth mark on her face that she carefully covered up with make up and that was a big fuss, that needed special permission and it was discussed in front of the whole class - honestly I should pipe down and breathe, it's 5 years since my kids left that school and I can still be stirred into the fury over their stupid rules.
We had to travel to a special shop to get dd school shoes - she had the skinniest feet you've ever seen - one shoe shop in the South East of England - we used to go there keeping our fingers crossed that they'd have a pair - not a nice pair just a black pair that fitted her. So she wore Mary Janes to school in all weathers - because of the school rules. Trainers or ankle boots would have been more appropriate footwear for a 1 mile walk there and back but no - school rules and they were not allowed to wear something different on the way to and from school either. Jesus my bloody pressure must be up!
And if they had pens when they went to school on top of everything else I think they deserved a big funking gold star!

New rules are they can’t have that much branded shit so hopefully that will be fixed.

However, you’re blaming the uniform for the lack of pen. My school doesn’t have draconian uniform, kids can even wear trainers, and there are still lots of kids who don’t bring a pen. Because they can’t be arsed and it’s not important to them. They always bring their phones…

My kids always had everything they needed - but it was quite an effort to ensure that happened, I can well believe less organised households would struggle. Good to hear that there are new rules against the branded shit. One of the local rules still doesn't allow girls to wear trousers - it's leafy suburb territory and no one likes to create a fuss, to be accused of not supporting the school and risk the teachers picking on their kids...so on it goes.

What is quite clear is that many parents simply don’t appreciate the bone-crushing tedium that is getting an average class to the point where they will actually do any work. Kids rocking up late, kids not having their book, kids not having a pen, kids simply pissing around and not getting out the book or the pen they do have. Because they don’t want to do any work.

The vast majority of school routines are to get kids to the point where they will do the work. Parents found this in lockdown when schools were setting work but ‘I just can’t get her to do it’. Like teachers are magic or something. No, it’s the huge amount of work schools put in.

I absolutely appreciate the challenges teachers have in classrooms.

I just don't understand how giving a child a detention because they have 9 pens available to them, but only 2 (and not 3) red biros helps the classroom or individual children learn? I really am all ears because I'd love to understand the logic.

I spoke to one of my dd's friend's, lovely kid not very academic but very creative. She attended a school that was awarded Sunday Times School of the Year!
She told me she really enjoyed science - it was a surprise to me as she'd struggled at primary, she said had a lovely science teacher who wasn't at all bothered about teaching them science - was happy for them to have a chat about their social lives - what they were doing at the weekend etc. I asked her why she wasn't annoyed that she wasted 2 hours of her life every week and would come out with nothing? She had to be in science, why didn't she expect more from her teacher - she hadn't really thought about it. She expected nothing from school - they didn't value her. It really depressed the fuck out of me that she had accepted this. This was happening at a top school in our country - they are incredibly strict on uniform - appearance is everything but the parents pay a lot for tutoring because the teaching doesn't come up to scratch.
I know parents at my dd's school also paid a lot for tutoring because I was reassured by the sixth form student that showed us around that if my kids struggled they could always get a tutor - years later the teacher asked for hands on how many were being tutored in dd's class - 2/3 of the kids put up their hands. This is an easy school - the kids are well behaved but a lot of the teachers just can't be arsed - there's no pen shortage.

I am not a teacher, but work in a school. I am constantly shocked by the behaviour of children, their rudeness, ingratitude, lack of respect and sense of entitlement is off the charts. I would be massively ashamed if I had raised one like this. I dont however like the sausage factory of overly structured learning to pass exams, there seems little joy in it and whilst children may get better exam results, i dont believe they are any more employable as they seem to exhibit strange ideas of how you can and should behave towards others.

I agree with you but I don't think kids are encouraged to challenge teachers and authority in an appropriate way. I did encourage my kids to challenge their teachers in much the same way as I'd politely challenge someone at work - it was good training for them, I'm sure the teacher's found it bloody annoying but I taught my kids to expect everyone to do a good job - including their teachers!

Here in England, school has been seen as optional pretty much since Covid - hence the strict rules.

I agree @ThrallsWife. And have a lot of sympathy for schools trying to close the stable door several years after the horse fucked off. It was a change in the wider consensus on school attendance, which I think a lot of people in 2020-1 didn't realise was as fragile and relatively new as it was.

Hence it's not a surprise that the strict rules don't work. You can't change the social contract without buy in from all sides. Poor teachers, office staff being expected to do the impossible.

@SanSeb there is challenging and there is being inquisitive. No issue with inquisitive, the other is disrespectful. In my view if you are asked to do something by an adult member of staff, your first instinct shouldnt be to challenge the need to do it. That is literally what happens all the time, the children think that rules dont apply to them because the rules are optional or to be negotiated...this is a home issue.

School just doesn't feel relevant to a lot of kids - they don't see the point. Lock them up in isolation to punish them and it just gets worse, the only thing they liked about school was their friends! And now they really hate school and really hate theri teachers. I don't know how we fix this but more rules is not the answer - we have broken them - we have punished and tested the system to collapse. The kids hate school - Pink Floyd might be appropriate here - we need a new contract.

So we're in Spain at the moment - went to a lovely Cocktail Bar - the mixicologist was a very talented individual - mind blowing creativity! He learned English tending his bar - before he didn't see the point, he can now speak several languages. My brother was crap at English at school, no interest, it wasn't relevant - he got a good job as a grad engineer in the telecoms industry and learned to write and communicate because he needed to for his job - that was his motivation - he'd never wanted to before - we need to make education more relevant or we need to provide more access to adult education, so that when these kids finally grow up they can get themselves educated.

I don’t understand why pupils don’t have a basis pencil case in their bags tbh.

There is always a time for negotiation - missing that is what separates the truly exceptional from the mundane. It is what employers look for in talented people - not mindless, rule following compliance. And from what I hear from my friend who was a Bursar at a very successful private school it was exactly the behaviour they encouraged! State school kids are told to shut up and get on with it. The drones if you like.

@SanSeb there is not always time for negotiation, some rules are in place for a whole raft of reasons, safety being one. Do you expect this to be negotiated or constantly explained?

@Skooled I should add - that knowing how often and when to challenge is important - chose your moment, don't create noise, don't waste your chances by challenging over trivial nonsense that you can sort out yourself or that doesn't really matter - learn to be effective. These skills are hugely important in the workplace and we have been training our kids on it for years. Life skills!

Do you not get footwear and clothing grants in England?

What’s wrong with walking to school?

Other parents have been training their kids to argue any reasonable request which is definitely not a life skill that will benefit them in the long run.

How are you training your kids in these skills @SanSeb?
Learning how to be effective I mean.
Knowing when to challenge etc.
How do you teach this?

What an awful post.

We discuss it at home - solutions, ideas, making things happen. We checked every email they sent a teacher to ensure they were getting the messaging correct, less so to lecturers, It has served them in their graduate careers and they occasionally need to ask ask about how to deal with people at work - we are all about the win win. Dh especially is a master at it.

It's achieving nothing positive. It is destroying the education of many children with SEND and will be a huge factor in the number of NEETs.

I dont know a single teacher that wouldnt welcome productive discussion within the lesson about the content being taught, but outside of that, the students should be respectful and not challenging staff imo.

My children went to a school which regularly makes the top 3 in the county and the top 50 nationally. When they went there they were told by slightly older friends that there were rules and if they were broken there were sanctions. Few children were rude and mostly went along with behavioural expectations, parents had opted in to a reasonably strict regime and supported the school or withdrew their children. Results are exceptional, relations between pupils and staff seemed cordial but respectful. Teachers could teach, those who wanted to could learn and most importantly, enjoy learning. Surely this is what we should aspire to but it’s a three way contract between staff, pupils and parents.