to think "everyone did it back then" isn't an excuse?

[taaay]

This comes up quite a lot whenever people discuss things that were commonplace in the past.

People say husbands beating their wives was normal, children were routinely smacked or caned, racism was widespread, homophobia was accepted, and so on. Often the defence is that people were simply products of their time and didn't know any better.

But were they really?

Not that long ago, police often treated violence against wives as a private domestic matter and were reluctant to get involved. Marital rape wasn't even recognised in law. Racist attitudes were commonplace and children could be hit in ways that would be completely unacceptable today.

Yet even then there were people saying these things were wrong. Women campaigned against domestic violence, people fought against racism and discrimination, and some parents chose not to hit their children despite it being socially accepted.

I sometimes wonder whether too much emphasis is placed on "that's just how things were". Were people really incapable of thinking for themselves? Did they lack an internal moral compass? If your neighbour was regularly beating his wife, or a child was being routinely thrashed, did it genuinely not occur to people that this was cruel and wrong simply because society tolerated it?

I understand that social norms are powerful and that people are influenced by the world around them. But surely "everyone else was doing it" can explain behaviour without excusing it.

‘What interests me is why two people with similar backgrounds, similar opportunities and similar pressures can reach very different conclusions.‘

So I’m starting to think there is a very specific question you want answered but won’t state it openly.

Perhaps you’re in opposition to a sibling over a big question ?

But if you want the answer to a question, you have to ask the right question in the first place.

If you keep the discussion at the level of the whole of human in the whole of history , you will never get more than the most general answer which never satisfies you.

f you want a specific answer,you must ask a specific clear question.

The reason I've kept returning to this point is because many posters seem to want one explanation that covers everyone

Quite the opposite. You want to kick against the straw man that "it's just how things were back then" as the single explanation for why things were acceptable in the past and aren't now.

No one else is saying it's the only possibility. We're all saying it's the main reason; that bucking the cultural and social norms is costly on an individual level and until it hits a tipping point people tend to go with the flow. And that's perfectly understandable.

You're the one insisting that people tell you that's the be all and end all of it. I think that's all in your head. It can be the overriding reason, but no one other than you is claiming absolutes.

What interests me is why two people with similar backgrounds, similar opportunities and similar pressures can reach very different conclusions

Different intellectual capabilities or neurodiversity. That becomes obvious when you are familiar with it.

I think we’ve just written a debate / essay /dissertation for the OP -hope she appreciates it

That thought crossed my mind when I posted last night🤔

There’s definitely something going on here!

Because people are inherently different and no two are exactly the same, even if their circumstances are the same? My mum was very classist(and racist, and homophobic and many other things). I am not. Got me in trouble a lot as a kid. Other kids would’ve toed the line , because it was not worth the abuse. Maybe I was more stubborn/difficult, maybe I was stronger, maybe it’s because I was highly read and exposed to different ideas , maybe I knew I’d never please her anyway and I’d always be in trouble so might as well dance to the beat of my own drum, maybe I was so damaged that it didn’t actually matter, maybe I had more compassion/empathy, maybe I was desperate to find my tribe and acceptance that I was happy to overlook “faults”, maybe it was my way to rebel against her and so on.

Some reasons are worthier than others, does it really matter?

Do you think so? 😂Well, I'd suggest she spends Sunday reading up on the influence of religion then. She doesn't seem to have even considered that.

I believe I did say early on that people who didn't follow the main trends were often members of the smaller branches of Christianity, with Quakers' opposition to slavery being a good example.
You're absolutely right about the importance of Religion eg in the Victorian era in determining how people chose to live. There were amazing religious individuals from every branch of Christianity (some Jews of course) dedicating their lives to the fight against poverty, always (as far as I know) driven by their religious faith.
This isn't a proper discussion; it just goes round and round in circles, with new posters continually saying the same things in slightly different ways.
Thanks for introducing a new pov! 🙂

Look up the nonconformist conscience, OP 😉

I really hope that is the case - you certainly wouldn't want to be unwittingly trapped in a corner by the OP at your local fund-raiser or Cheese & Wine

I find it a bit odd that people keep assuming I haven't considered things simply because I don't think they fully explain the issue.

Of course religion has had a huge influence on social attitudes throughout history. That's hardly a controversial observation.

The question isn't whether religion influenced people's beliefs. It's why people exposed to the same religious teachings often reached very different
conclusions. Some used religion to justify slavery, others used it to oppose it. Some used it to defend discrimination, others used it to challenge it.

So yes, religion is part of the picture. Nobody is denying that. What I don't accept is that pointing to religion somehow ends the discussion.

It feels as though every time someone offers one influence, whether religion, culture, upbringing, poverty or education, they treat it as the complete answer. My point has always been that human beings are more complicated than that.

Isn’t that what people keep telling you, that things are complicated and there’s no specific answer to such a general question.
Narrow your question sufficiently and you’ll get the kind of answer you’re saying you’re looking for for,

Racism
Rampant sexism
DV etc…

…is very different from 12 year olds used to be left on their own for an hour or more and social services should be called in if it happens today

No, most people have said that it is a complex issue with different factors and gave examples . Then you changed the goal posts. Repeat.

What answer do you actually want?

Oh my goodness, OP. I tipped you off to look up the nonconformist conscience. You seem determined to investigate no further than your own preliminary idea. I now think you're on a wind-up.

So why do some people question modern slavery and others don’t?

Read your last paragraph in this post : this is what countless people on this thread have been saying but still your labouring the point
The phrases statements relating to the time line ie “Everybody did it / it was what happened then “ which you keep going back to are irrelevant .
You have actually stated Humans beings are more complicated than that

There is nothing more really to add to the thread

😂😂😂

Personality
Motivation
Personal circumstances at critical points
Attitudes of parents
Attitudes of peers
Attitudes of those in authority
Intelligence level
Educational opportunities
Parents' educational level
Physical health
Mental health
Exposure to culture
Age
Religion
Location
Financial situation
Capacity for creative thought
Capacity for logical thought
Cognitive ability
Memory
Access to inspirational figures
Access to media
Type of media consumed
Variety of viewpoints available

Ad infinitum

Surely it's exactly the same as anything - how come some people are motivated to become athletes/astronauts/doctors whereas others never really feel called to any particular vocation? How come some people start social clubs whereas others wouldn't even consider joining one?

How come identical twins have different life paths? Even people brought up in as close to the same circumstances as possible end up forming different opinions on things so I don't really understand how you can be arguing that it doesn't make sense that people have never all thought or felt the same way about things.

Everyone is a product of a million different things and I suspect that most people assume that we all know and understand that when they refer to the historical context of a person's decisions.

The prevailing cultural and social conditions are one of the major contributing factors that might explain how the melting pot of other factors became focussed on a particular issue at a particular time.

If you read auto/biographies of those who instigated social change, you might be able to identify specific factors that they have in common.

I once read that a shared factor in people who had achieved something really noteworthy was that a much higher proportion than average had lost a parent in youth and hence experienced adversity.
Are we getting anywhere, OP❓

Sorry posted twice in error.

And people who thought things were wrong were considered cranks or worse - eg heretics and burnt at the stake!

It cost a lot to challenge social norms.

Now you just get shouted down on social media. For example, I don't think pet ownership is right. Or driving an SUV. But I won't get burnt at the stake for expressing those views.

@taaay You still haven't explained why you think this is uniquely a problem of the past. There are people today, right now, that don't give a toss about (insert issue of your choice) unless it directly affects them and sometimes even if it does. There were people who stuck their necks out in the 1600's, the 1930's and the 1970's and there were people who didn't. And there are plenty of people in 2026 that just shrug their shoulders and go with the status quo. And unless I'm very much mistaken it will always be thus because it's the human condition. So your point is that some people made, and still make, excuses for their inertia? No shit. Tell us something we don't know professor.

I really hope that is the case - you certainly wouldn't want to be unwittingly trapped in a corner by the OP at your local fund-raiser or Cheese & Wine

That had crossed my mind. Unreasonable drunk bloke in a pub for me though.