Can we talk about NEETs?

[MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack]

Sorry if there's a thread already and I've missed it. But I want to talk about NEETs.

Apparently, we are potentially going to have 1.25million young people not in employment, education or training by the early 2030s. This is quite an alarming number, and it feels like we're failing an entire generation - both the NEETs themselves, who don't seem to have very much going on in their lives that might give them a sense of satisfaction or achievement, but also their working peers who will presumably end up having to support them via the tax system.

I really don't want this to be a thread with lots of judgement or criticism of these young people - it seems to me that we must have failed them somehow as a society. I also want to steer clear of party politics if we can. But I really want to understand why we have so many young people in this position right now.

Does anyone have a child in this situation who would be willing to share why they find themselves in this position? What are the barriers to them studying or getting at least a part time job? Are they happy with how things are right now? Are they trying to change their situation? What do they actually do all day? Are they surrounded by friends who are in the same position? What do they do about money? And what do you feel about the whole situation as a parent?

If anyone is willing to share, I really hope we can avoid a pile-on in which the young people and/or their parents are subjected to a character assassination. I would like an honest and frank exchange of views and experiences because I do genuinely want to understand the root causes of this issue, but if it descends into blame and fingerpointing, then the whole conversation will get derailed.

For full disclosure, I do have a dc in the middle of the 16-24 age group, but neither she nor any of her friends fall into this category.

Education for the sake of it is fine when that education is free, but these days it comes at en enormous cost, which many graduates will be paying for the rest of their working lives. There are less expensive ways to demonstrate commitment! As a country, I think we need to start moving away from the university system.

Employers need to invest more in training, and that will probably require some government initiative to increase incentives.

UK schools (and subsequently the students) don’t take learning a second language seriously. It’s all well and good to be able to write a GCSE paper in French about a time you went to the beach with your friends but it’s not going to get you anywhere. These days European countries will push English on the students from a very young age and most are fairly proficient by adulthood. In the UK we have the privilege of English being our native language but that means we don’t bother learning other languages and our young people pay for it. My secondary school tried to teach us French and German at the same time (halfheartedly) which was utterly ridiculous and nobody progressed past the very basics in each one.

Large organisations are binning off the UK post Brexit and focusing on the EU instead. The UK is becoming isolated. Investing in your child learning German from a young age would be a good idea even if they don’t have an EU passport. Thankfully my child will have an EU passport but I’ll be encouraging them to learn German. French is decent as well but Germany unlocks Austria for you which is beneficial for the UN.

It does improve the employability of the person as they'd have gained a work ethic, customer service skills, organisational skills, self confidence, etc. and even if they don't get a job, a "side gig" self employment can often lead to a more lucrative/long term self employment. It may not be "perfect", but neither is University. Better than sat at home gaming or browsing all day every day.

I've had loads of clients over the years who've started from nothing and morphed into decent self employment or small businesses. One guy started out selling wet fish from the back of a dodgy old transit van and ended up selling a multi million pound sandwich filling and marinade business - just from "boot-strapping" his way up, meeting people along the way, gaining experience along the way, then using contacts etc. Another started an e-commerce online business after dabbling with buying/selling on ebay re his hobby that grew into his own website, and again, sold for a decent price after several years after it grew into a turnover of a couple of million - again, from virtually nothing.

We really shouldn't "diss" these small "side line" businesses.

And even if the person wants a job rather than self employment, actually doing "something" tangible fills the gaps in the online job application process, where the AI computer often immediately rejects people with no experience, or where even if you get to interview stage, there's nothing to talk about because the applicant has done nothing.

We need to start encouraging people to take responsibility for themselves rather than assuming the "state" will look after them, whether it's giving them a job, skills, benefits, etc. We need more routes for people to actually grasp the nettle and do things for themselves.

Deutsch ist eine wunderschöne Sprache

There are many and complex reasons for this; some simply don't want to work but the many that do have been screwed over by successive governments who allow vast numbers of migrants into the UK, this to the detriment of young Brits;

"27 young non-EU migrants hired for every young Brit since 2020, analysis reveals"

www.centreforsocialjustice.org.uk/newsroom/27-young-non-eu-migrants-hired-for-every-young-brit-since-2020-analysis-reveals

I agree, but the state also needs to improve post school education other than university, i.e. a return to our World leading adult education sector that was scrapped in the 90s and 00s. People used to be able to go to a local college to study all kinds of things, from A levels to diplomas to professional qualifications, from massage to flower arranging to skiing. All that's gone with the stupid push for 50% to university and local colleges abandoning adult education to concentrate on 16-18 year olds. We need options for people outside the 16-18 group and outside the universities so that people who "missed out" can re-train or learn new skills.

We also need to get back to giving grants/incentives for people to start their own businesses. Back in the 80s, there were grants available for unemployed who started a business, if I remember rightly, a weekly sum to "tide them over" until their business started making money, which was very popular and led to lots of new businesses. Too many recent governments have hated and discouraged small businesses and self employments and we need to reverse that.

The UK was once a "nation of shopkeepers" (not literally but meaning high levels of small business and self employment) but a few decades of poor decisions favouring multi-nationals have led to a massive decline in small businesses employing people, decline in numbers of shops, pubs, etc. Despite that, small employers still employ more people than big employers, and if we encourage small businesses to take on staff (rather than penalise them!), and encourage unemployed to start small businesses, we could virtually eliminate the systemic long term unemployment at a stroke and grow the economy. But instead we put obstacles in the way. Look at covid support - 3 million self employed, small businesses and freelancers excluded from the support schemes - yet big businesses got personalised grant/support - says it all really!

You sound quite a lot older than me. The world is always changing. Yes, housing is an issue, but then we insist on making it expensive. Ditto childcare. The more things are regulated the more expensive they become. Regulation is good, but it has to be tempered by affordability.

Also re housing I think we underestimate the number of people who in previous eras have lived in "non-standard" (i.e. not owning or renting own flat or house) situations: lodgers, living with parents into adulthood, living between places, living in less than ideal accommodation. But that is completely unacceptable now, apparently. Each "unit" (family, couple, individual) must have their own "housing unit". Where we take that approach, it is going to come at a cost.

You’re either not getting it, or don’t want to get it.

No one is dissing the side jobs. I do think they’re a good idea , and I know from personal experience that some NEETS are engaged in these types of activities (as much as some posters want to pretend that none of them are doing it and they just discovered sliced bread). What I’m taking an issue with is, is that not only is it suggested as a fix at population level, but an easy instant fix. Which it isn’t. It might, POSSIBLY , give an advantage to a specific subset of people in a specific set of circumstances/jobs.

It’s like recommending home remedies , without actually having a cure for a serious illness. Sure they might help, might even ameliorate some symptoms, but it won’t actually fix the problem.

This quick, instant and small subset mentality is what is so frustrating and why certain things are continually shit in the UK. If you want actual results, look at what works in other countries with low number of NEETS. Policies tried and tested that whitstood the passing of time.

Our teens can get EU passports that’s not a problem for us
And they enjoy languages (more if you remove the exam part)

If that is what they need to do then they’ll do that. But not every young person can do this. And for now they live here.

It’s not the answer to this issue and there are many more countries outside the EU - and whilst the Government tinkers around the edges many bright young ambitious things are looking outside these shores for lifelong careers (not just jobs) as they need to go where investment and innovation are and it’s not here, in large part.

You make some perfectly fair points.

I just feel that the elderly landlady, supplementing her income with a spare room is rarer now.

It's fine in your 20s, no good when you want a family.

Parents seem to want their children in dependant and out the moment they graduate... I never had the option to be home post uni. To be fair my parents didn't care about rent, they didn't need the money. They wanted me out so that they could tell their friends how well I was doing. Being out of the family home was a sign of success for my folks... At 21, 22

If I was at home at 25, my dad would certainly have seen me as a failure.

They feel the same about young people today.

They can be v ignorant and unkind, certainly dad. On his ring fenced pension. :)

There’s a few things I think. I had some involvement with NEETs as part of my work. In terms of barriers to progression, some said they’ve qualifications from school or college but when they apply for roles they want more experience so there’s that horrid catch 22 of how do they get experience in the first place.

They said applications for jobs are complex and long winded. They are not really set up for young people starting out so those with more experience are more easily able to go through the recruitment process

I did find that some, about 50% had very low confidence and poor social skills. Unable to converse with someone easily or participate in discussions where there was lots of support in place. It took a few weeks of meeting them to get anywhere. When they opened up a bit they had lots of knowledge/skills but not necessarily the drive or initiative, it all had to be drawn out and it felt like getting blood out of a stone

This was a piece of work specifically targeted to NEET’s and if it was a struggle to get them to open up and engage with the programme when we had a good awareness of barriers to work, then it will be 10 times harder for them if they’re approaching companies for work who maybe don’t have that layer of support in place

Problem is that a lot of businesses are wanting to turn a profit and have high costs so are less willing to invest the time in NEET’s as they want people with experience who cannot the ground running

I think there needs to be a lot more focus on education in schools, not just academic education but life skills eg resilience/group work/confidence building/how to apply for jobs/mock interviews/budgeting etc as I think these are key areas where the young people I have met struggle with, I have to caveat that we do live in a deprived area and you can really see the difference between those who come from the inner city state school in those areas in comparison to those from less deprived areas who attend schools with higher ratings and whose parents have more income

There are 2 points I would make, it is a political decision to underfund education and the Student Loan system has failed and is expensive .There could be much better ways of funding it.

Secondly incentives to Employers have been tried and failed multiple times. Many ,me included still remember the awful YTS scheme. It will also encourage Employers to take people on the cheap for short periods.

@Onegiantpupil

I think there needs to be a lot more focus on education in schools, not just academic education but life skills eg resilience/group work/confidence building/how to apply for jobs/mock interviews/budgeting etc as I think these are key areas where the young people I have met struggle with

I fully agree with all that. Unfortunately we lost a lot of "life skill" learning when we scrapped the old "secondary modern" schools and led everyone to believe they could have an academic education instead at a comp, which simply doesn't serve a huge number of people.

We do need to revolutionalise schools. Even the more "academic" minded kids aren't getting a rounded "education" suitable for the modern World, and it's worse for the less academically minded kids. We're still teaching according to what the world of work was like decades ago rather than what it's going to be like in the next decade and it's a massive disservice to our young people.

A big yes to life skills, careers advice, confidence building, budgeting, interview skills, job application skills etc. Schools seem to do the opposite, especially those with a bullying problem that ruins confidence and causes disengagement. As "facts" are now so easy to find at the touch of a button, we should be concentrating on skills instead.

A bit of "one to one" time with teachers/form teachers etc would make a massive difference, whether in the classroom, or via clubs & societies, sports/games, outdoor pursuits, school trips, etc., not necessarily talking about homework/classwork etc. but just general conversation. Some kids simply won't have any "adult" conversation especially if they have problems at home.

I know I learned a lot doing the stage lighting for school plays etc, just by it being "non subject related" so conversations with teachers etc were about something different which made a massive difference when they're not whingeing about not revising or missing a homework etc., we had some very good "general" chats about all kinds of things whilst sat in the lighting gallery between changes and during rehearsals etc.

Totally agree with you! In buckets

What is the better way of funding student loans? Taxpayer funding is only viable when a small number of people go.

I volunteer as a guide leader as I believe in giving yp these opportunities but there’s a massive shortage of adult volunteers.
We do a lot of team work, encourage leadership skills. This year we’ve had a session on interview skills (and a careers night. We’ve also had a session run by Royal Navy. We do budgeting and cooking challenges eg ready steady cook. It’s not just crafts in a church hall. All of us leaders work ft and aim to be good role models.

Not really funding in education and training is an investment in the country's work force and future and should not be rationed

Even in the past, not all students got maintenance grants it was only fees that were paid, many like me with 2 parents working full time only got a partial amount when my sister and I happened to both be at Uni for a year. The other 2 years I got nothing my parents paid me in a tax efficient wrapper. The high fees and maintenance loans are now very poor value for money , it it were going on teaching staff that might be ok but it has been used on fancy buildings and Chancellors posh cars.

We need to bite the bullet, make fees free and give maintenance grants to the students from the poorest students. The student loans book is a Ponzi scheme set up to make a poor long term burden on students and ensure that many Students will never pay the initial funds back made worse by high interest rates which is bad for the state. You can be sure that the bank and the debt firms involved are making a killing. why not just charge students the initial amount loaned back.

Surely its better to educate kids than leaving them mouldering on poverty benefits.

Some people seem to have very rose tinted views of the past in terms of education & youth employment in previous eras. There were chronic periods of youth unemployment in the 80s, 90s, and 2010s. There are severe challenges for youth employment at present, but there have been challenging periods previously.

As the labour market goes through severe changes young people are heavily impacted. The decline of large scale manufacturing in the 80s is an example as is the financial crisis.

Large numbers of people across the EU speak two/three languages. You would have to be really exceptional to have a UK passport and be selected for these jobs.

UK citizens should only get EU jobs if they have special skills that no one else who applied has.
I am only guessing but there are probably more people in the UK with EU passports than there are people with UK passports only and fluency in two EU languages.

Do we actually think interview skills/ confidence/ resilience training will help? There’s just not enough jobs, and much fewer in the future. We should be teaching survival skills and foraging, possibly combat skills.

I was a teen and young person in the 80s and 90s and had no problem finding work in all sorts of ways. I have my own young people now and it’s just not comparable. It’s brutal.

Honestly? Not massively. I worked in this sector and although interview skills/ personal development is definitely useful and required, until there are actual entry level jobs they're a bit pointless on their own. I had students who were absolutely committed to the learning process and gave brilliant performances in role play, but couldn't get through the application phase for real jobs, because of lack of experience. Hence my push for volunteering. It's a multi faceted response that's needed to this crisis.

The county doesn’t even have enough tax revenue to fund the welfare system, let alone student tuition. It’s completely unrealistic to expect the government to fund this for 50% of young people.

As it is, the student loan system makes a substantial net loss, which means that student aren’t paying anywhere near enough back, and the taxpayer has to make up the difference. The money that is leant to student isn’t free, the government has to borrow it and pay interest, which is why student must also pay interest on their loans. The government doesn’t dictate the borrowing rate, that’s dictated by the markets.

Student accommodation typically costs at least £6k per year (more in most places), before any bills, food and necessities. Most families can’t afford to fund this, especially if they have more than one child.

The solution is that far fewer young people should be going to university and delaying their entry to the employment market.

Other countries manage.