Is Germany being unreasonable? Childfree adults paying more for elder care

[Fauxlein]

"Childfree adults to pay more in elder care contributions — report
According to a report from German media group RND, federal Health Minister Nina Warken has prepared a draft bill that would have adults without children pay a higher percentage of taxes towards publicly-funded elder care.
The bill would have contributions from childfree adults increase by 0.7% over a period of years, meaning they would pay 2.5% of their income each month. Their employer will be expected to pay 1.8%. For adults with children the rates will remain the same: 1.8% for people with one child, 1.55% for people with two children, and 1.3% for people with three or more children.
Under the proposal, all adults over the age of 23 who are working full-time would be affected.
It is unclear when Warken, a member of Chancellor Friedrich Merz's center-right Christian Democrats (CDU), will submit the draft to the cabinet. Her ministry had originally said it would present a proposal for elder care reform in mid-May. With a long-stagnating birthrate mildly buoyed by immigration, Germany needs to act fast to make sure older generations can be taken care of without placing an undue burden on young people."

YABU - German Health Minister is being unreasonable, it's not kids responsibility to look after elderly parents and is unfair to penalise child free people
YANBU - this seems like a fair counterbalance to increasing costs to the state of elder care

But the value to the state is in having a child. Not in wanting to have a child.

But it will still feel like punishment for a medical condition. What about people that have severely disabled children? Those children will never work and contribute to tax themselves. They will never be forced to pay for parents care as they cannot work. But those parents will not have to pay more tax. Why? Because it’s not their fault their child has a medical condition right? It’s also not the fault of the infertile that they have a medical condition.

Not really. 100k means a take home of around 4600€ per month depending on tax group so yes a good wage but hardly super rich. We pay a lot more tax and insurance.

I think it's flawed. There's no guarantee those with children will receive help from them with their elderly care. Families disperse. The kids could emigrate. They could become estranged. Then what? They've paid less but still get the same benefits?

They'd have done better to charge everyone the same and then give a bit extra in child benefit to offset it. That way it would be 'help for families' rather than discrimination against people who choose not to or are unable to have children.

So many people who struggle to understand how societies are maintained.

"I have a private pension and my own money, and I pay more for other people's children!"

Your pension is worth 0. Nothing, unless there is a young generation to keep the country and the economy running when you are old. Without that, whatever pot of cash you have will be worth nothing after an economic or worse societal collapse.

There seems to be this idea that birthrates don't impact society.. and therefore it can go down, and the economy will be fine.. it can go down and climate change will be better.. nothing bad will happen. Because? Immigration? Except those countries also have falling or slowing birth rates... Because AI? That isn't exactly a dream scenario.

The reality is everyone, with or without children, needs the next generation. There are no exceptions, it doesn't matter how rich or idependant you are. You need a future capable generation.

That is why everyone pays for it.

Parents pay more, hugely more, because they choose to. Both financially and in labour. Those without children will enjoy the rewards of the stable society maintained by that labour. There is nothing wrong with that, there are plenty of other societal roles as well as raising children, and some people can't. Nothing wrong with it, except it does need to be acknowledged that parents make a huge contribution to the future of any nation.

In the case of Germany? Good, it sounds like they are a few steps ahead of the uk. We currently are facing a future of elderly care that we won't be able to fund. What are we going to do about it? Maybe not this, but over the next few decades there will need to be changes, and I wouldn't be surprised if they include children being forced to take on more responsibility for their parents. And for those without children, the state.

If you look it at a different angle, they are discounting the elder care tax for those with children, think of it like child benefit. What isn’t clear is whether you still get the discount once your children are adults as I’ve seen both ways written, possibly lost in translation!

Very difficult to comment on this one without knowing it inside out BUT…as a general non specific point, I think the principle of everyone contributing to every item of expediture of the state probably a good one. Otherwise if penalising these childfree taxpayers, do you give them a refund for eg education services or paediatric healthcare that they aren’t using? (And then do you give private parents a refund too?)

You get the discount for life when you become a parent.

In Germany if you have private health insurance you don't pay into the state system.

That very interesting, thanks, so they have already moved away from everyone paying for everything irrespective of choices.

Yes, but we still pay a lot more in tax and insurances than in the UK.

Note the IF.
It’s not a case of having to have private insurrance. And no one there is getting bankrupt by health costs, unlike so many people the USA.

I don’t think they ‘moved away from everyone paying fir everything’ as you’d like it to be.

Not at all. We pay way more than in the UK.

Yes that’s what I meant.

The IF referred to the IF in your previous post

I don’t understand why they don’t make it easier for parents if the country is so reliant upon birth rates. It’s no the wonder so many are choosing to be childfree.

It’s not just a German thing but everywhere in Europe (including the UK.)

I don’t have an issue with saying clearly that I don’t think all families produce good children. But that’s more and issue of socio-economic status / education rather than whatever nonsense the ethno-nationalists come out with.

The idea of people being required to contribute financially to the care of abusive parents is truly batshit.

It's the same in France, I assume it's a Napoleonic thing.

Agree it's simply wrong. People should be responsible for themselves, not expect and be expected to get their kids to pay for them. And it's not like Germans in particular don't earn well and don't save a lot (the average gross salary is about £8000 a year more than in the UK).

Although I always wonder how they manage to pay the high rents once they retire. And I think that is becoming an increasing issue.

Really not that much extra - especially if you are low paid / lifelong single.

People would be surprised that we aren’t generally rolling around in cash. But also while we may not have childrearing fees we also pay for things we personally will never be able to make use of.

In terms of being able to force kids to pay for elder care - what of those elderly whose children have migrated? How does Germany manage those cases.

That sounds like a ponzi scheme. Those children also get old and we cannot have neverending population growth. Lower birthrates are the new norm and it’s time we accepted that and planned for the new normal.

I don’t think most without children actively wanted that. Most are involuntarily childless.

They can still ask you to pay. Just how far they would go to enforce it, I don't know, but I have a friend for whom this was a question.

This is one of those rare times where you think, thank God we are the U.K. and not the EU. Let Germany do what they like, but why penalise people who for whatever reason do not have children.