Is Germany being unreasonable? Childfree adults paying more for elder care

[Fauxlein]

"Childfree adults to pay more in elder care contributions — report
According to a report from German media group RND, federal Health Minister Nina Warken has prepared a draft bill that would have adults without children pay a higher percentage of taxes towards publicly-funded elder care.
The bill would have contributions from childfree adults increase by 0.7% over a period of years, meaning they would pay 2.5% of their income each month. Their employer will be expected to pay 1.8%. For adults with children the rates will remain the same: 1.8% for people with one child, 1.55% for people with two children, and 1.3% for people with three or more children.
Under the proposal, all adults over the age of 23 who are working full-time would be affected.
It is unclear when Warken, a member of Chancellor Friedrich Merz's center-right Christian Democrats (CDU), will submit the draft to the cabinet. Her ministry had originally said it would present a proposal for elder care reform in mid-May. With a long-stagnating birthrate mildly buoyed by immigration, Germany needs to act fast to make sure older generations can be taken care of without placing an undue burden on young people."

YABU - German Health Minister is being unreasonable, it's not kids responsibility to look after elderly parents and is unfair to penalise child free people
YANBU - this seems like a fair counterbalance to increasing costs to the state of elder care

As people have less children, placing the onus of caring for the elderly onto the state, the money to pay for it needs to come from somewhere.

I don't see why its unfair?

Every single person I know has done years of free caring for their elderly parents & saved the state a fortune, whereas the childfree older relatives have had to go into state funded care earlier. There has to be a way to incentivise people to have enough children to provide the workforce (including careworkers) of the future.

I think it’s very difficult to comment on another country’s tax and benefits system, or not without a lot of expertise, because there will be nuances we don’t know or factor in.

That said, it doesn’t seem that unfair knowing the amount of free (to the state) care alot of people provide their elderly parents.

It's interesting that the voting is currently 50/50 but the only comments so far think it's a good idea.

I have no problem in increased taxes to help support elders, but as someone with DC I am also biased as I wouldn't be affected by it.

How about when all those children grow up and need care? Seems like in the long term it will be more expensive for the state

That's a good point and of course the whole tax and social security system will be very nuanced, but I thought it was interesting as an idea in itself.

That's an interesting point, do you mean that the increase in tax will not offset the decrease in child bearing so won't make the impact that's required?

As someone who can't have children, my question would be (if they implemented it here) can I opt out of paying taxes towards maternity allowance, schooling, free child care hours, and free school meals? Or does my paying for this offset what I need later in life? I don't want to not pay, I don't actually begrudge paying taxes, as I know the taxes of that generation will pay for care should I need it.

Like I say, not against paying taxes to support children and those that can have them. It's just another view point.

I’m curious if it’s a cultural issue who people expect to look after them. All my parents’ generation (I’m in my 60s) seem to think their kids should be closely involved in their care and send away carers, cleaners etc that have been organised for them despite their own incapacity but my generation all expect to manage their own care.

With that in mind I don’t think child free people should have to pay more. Often they are single and everything costs more per person - single supplements, taxis, utIlities. When I go away with my sister and her partner they pay £100 each and I pay £200. I have children (adults now) but I don’t think I should have paid less tax. If anything I was taking more out of the system in the child rearing days with maternity costs and benefits, child benefits, school costs, medical costs etc.

On a site where a significant proportion of the voters are likely to have children, the results may be biased.

It’s a completely different system so difficult to comment. On the face of it I don’t think it’s fair - people without children pay a lot of tax that goes towards things like education, child benefit, free childcare hours etc. it doesn’t feel right to expect them to pay yet more tax. And what about parents without surviving children - would they also be expected to pay the extra tax? Or parents whose children don’t live in Germany?

One of my friends is managing to help keep her mother in her mother's own home by visiting 3x a day. Obviously she's a little unique in this, but it's a big contribution/ I don't have kids, I have savings for my end of life care as I know I will need to contribute more for this than if I had family looking after me. The problem is that not all of those with kids will have them contributing to their end of life care.

Its a good idea but framed to get the worst response. They should just say that there would be financial support for those raising our children (who are needed to fund our country when they reach working age). Its basically child benefit but looked at through a different lens

I mean who are going to be the cleaners , carers and health workers for our old age if people do not have children?

This, I pay for others chuff monkeys,so I should get care later on ,just yet another way of stigmatising me , I would imagine the percentage of childfree is quite low anyway I don't know many people without children, even though I actively seek them out. The societal pressure to have children is still very high.

How does this work for parents who are named on a birth certificate but don’t live with the child and pay maintenance for example?

Conversely those without children have not consumed education, early-years medical care etc and other state supported elements such as childcare.

And there is no obligation on children to look after their parents ... many don't (so do those unsupported parents get a late tax bill?)

I'm not a great fan of using tax systems to encourage people to change their life choices.

A little like I'm not keen on low emission zones taxing people for polluting. If it's wrong ban it, don't just set a tax raising measure that means nothing to rich people and set just low enough to avoid a revolt from others.

But all those children will have children. If it's enough of an incentive for the first generation, it will be for the next.
People who don't have children, have more disposable income. I think it's fair that they pay more to the state.

Yes this - as a childfree adult in a higher tax bracket it feels like I pay out a lot for services very few of which I actually use - but accept this is the price of a functioning society - suggesting tax contributions should somehow match up with what you put in/get back seems like a very slippery slope to me.

There's no proof that any of the children born to parents paying lower tax will end up supporting their own parents or paying tax themselves - they might move abroad, never work, die early or be born or develop a life limiting disability themselves, etc - whereas I already have contributed quite a lot!

It would also be a further punch in the face for people who would have loved kids but never had them for whatever reason. Plus what about people whose children die - do they then have to go back to paying a higher tax rate on top of everything else?

Given it kicks in from age 23 it would also make sense economically to have kids as young as possible so you pay the lower rate as soon as you start full time work - which again is probably good from a biological standpoint but most young people are already struggling with finances and housing at that age, I cant see how adding a baby to the mix would be a good idea!

People who don't have children, have more disposable income.

Depends how much they earn and how much their essential bills are. A single person without children on NMW is likely to have less disposable income than a two-parent household with a household income of £250k.

Also children don’t stay financially dependent on their parents forever.

Erm well I live on my own and certainly don’t have more disposable income as there’s only one salary coming in. The only discount I get is the 25% reduction in my council tax.

I have one adult DS and neither he or his girlfriend want kids, same with my nephew and a large proportion of my cousins. So it’s not guaranteed that your own children will go on to have children themselves.

What about people who can’t have children? Or people whose children emigrate to the other side of the world and do nothing to help with their care?

Or people like my siblings who live nearby but just don’t bother? There’s too many variables for this to work.

Why not just means test public elder care, so that people who can afford private care will pay for it.

Also, for the person who asked ‘who will be the cleaners and carers in the future’ - that would be immigrants. If they are honest, most parents on this site would not want their children to grow up to be cleaners or carers.

I think a better idea in the UK would be to introduce the equivalent of National Insurance for people over State pension age, regardless of whether they have children or not, but to actually ringfence those contributions for elder care.

My gay son is not going to have children.

Yeah so that's why they're planning to incentivise it for the next generation. People tend to want to have kids but not if it's financially very difficult for them. You've spend countless thousands over the years raising your child. They now pay taxes which will help to fund elderly care. It's fair that the money comes back around and that while raising kids and spending loads on it, you get a bit of a tax break.