Have we, in the UK, become selfish, lawless and irresponsible?

[Commencethe]

This Bank Holiday seems to have descended into chaos and honestly I am starting to wonder what is happening to people generally.

This weekend alone there have been reports, tragically, of teenagers drowning in rivers and reservoirs, emergency services unable to reach one incident because of illegal parking, beauty spots gridlocked with abandoned cars, beaches overwhelmed with people drinking and taking drugs to excess, fights, weapons, rubbish left everywhere, police being called because a pair of teenagers were apparently having sex openly in a park, and racist outrage because a tourist attraction acknowledged Eid and invited people to celebrate it.

What strikes me is that this feels much wider than just young people behaving badly. Adults blocking roads and verges because they cannot be bothered to park properly. Families leaving litter behind. People ignoring safety warnings around open water. Whole communities unwilling to challenge awful behaviour because someone else should deal with it.

And every time there is discussion afterwards, the blame immediately goes to lack of education, the police, the council, schools, anyone except the individuals involved, their parents, or society more broadly.

I also wonder whether increasingly populist politics and public discourse have plays a role. Constant anger, division and disrespect towards other people, experts, authority and even basic rules seems to have filtered into everyday behaviour. More entitlement, less responsibility, less thought for anyone else.

At what point did personal responsibility disappear? When did we stop caring about our impact on other people or lose any sense of community?

It all feels increasingly selfish, lawless and entitled. Less consideration, less accountability, less self discipline.

Have standards genuinely collapsed or am I overreacting and being unreasonable?

we spent the bank holiday weekend camping in Dorset - 7 adults and 7 children age range 2 to 61.

Spent 3 days on the beaches at Lyme Regis, West Bay and Lulworth Cove. They were all very busy, but I have to say people were perfectly well-behaved at all 3 locations (though we laughed at the people parking a mile up the hill from Lulworth to avoid a parking charge - good luck with the children & all your beach gear on your walk back up on the hottest May day for a million years).

So, by our experience the bad behaviour and anti-social vibes didn't extend to our bits of Dorset (though there was a slight smell of weed at the campsite on one evening, briefly)

We are overpopulated, without leadership. We have had the last government implementing austerity, while telling their friends to inflate contract prices to maximise profit. Real problems aren't being tackled. Our Policing has lost direction. Add in a genuine lack of opportunities, poor schooling, no support systems, bad housing and the division we have and that's what is playing out. There's millions who will never get a piece of the pie, so they are implementing instant gratification and helping themselves.

Thanks for reminding me why I left Mumsnet for my mental health. Never met a more miserable bunch of internet people in my life 😂

And no, we haven't.

how much of this have you actually witnessed, as opposed to reading about it in the newspaper?

I think you were onto something when you talked about the populist trend - in this country, and abroad. People are less bothered about keeping appearances, less ashamed of "what the neighbours will think". This is true when talking about politics, but it pervades into all aspects of living in society. The economic situation doesn't help either, especially in the UK where I think the population is very "possession driven", materialistic compared to other places in Europe. I think there is a general trend of becoming more selfish.

But it starts even before the kind of actions that the police need to be involved in. Parents are not parenting their children and haven't for some time. From permissive parenting and allowing children to be rude and feral (because they can't be fucked to deal with a tantrum), through to horrible and disrespectful behaviour at school right through to criminal activity. The failure is beginning at home.

I do cold water swimming all year round.

i honestly bloody despair at people trying to put up notices or tell people not to do it,

I swim in a river near me all year round. Friends of mine who have lived in the area for over sixty years remember learning to swim there with their primary school.

it’s been a swimming spot for time immemorial and still you get people saying “don’t swim”.

beaches have a flag system, and the rnli run regular campaigns to teach people about the sea and it’s dangers.

and yet the Peak District and others just say “don’t swim”

nobody is going to listen to that.

i had a lovely swim in my river yesterday, and the day before and the day before. It’s at 22 degrees.

sure, going swimming at a place you don’t know and jumping in is bloody stupid.

but we don’t tell people not to swim in the sea because each year some people die (eg see the deaths at Brighton).

cold water shock is a thing, yes. But telling people not to swim is not a good response

YANBU, except for the word "we".
I haven't become those things, and neither have any of my friends, so refuse to be lumped in with the transgressors
But the behaviours you mention HAVE become more noticeable - in part because of sensationalist reporting, but also in part because a lot of people are shockingly selfish, and don't give a fck.

The Sheffield incident is shocking but other than that, as sad as it is there have always been tragic deaths of young people exploring and something going wrong, that's hardly new. There used to be televised h&s warnings about not playing on train tracks/swimming in reservoirs etc.

Newspapers and bulletins are hardly going to lead with "and in headline news today, 60 million people had a lovely bank holiday weekend relaxing and seeing friends and family" are they?

I was at the beach on monday, thousands of people there, didnt see anyone drunk or fighting! Same at a local lake the day before. Even if 0.1% of the population make the news thats still 99.9% behaving normally.

In terms of the parking - yes it is annoying but if anything its the fault of the local area who see frequent visitors during good weather every year and fail to put in relevant provisions. It's not rocket science - you know its going to be busy, build a car park, do a park and ride, charge people for these things to make your money back and then yellow line the rest of the road and have traffic wardens patrol it on busy days to enforce no parking and direct them to said car parks and park and rides, if people still park then their fines can also go to fund them. Add a few coffee shops and toilets and councils might even make money!

Nn, people shouldnt be parking inconsiderately but theres an obesity epidemic - we should be encouraging people to get out and explore nature and exercise, not penalise them for it.

People are brainwashed by narrow-minded, bitter, uninformed conspiracy theorists. Look at any post on social media... it can be an article about anything, and there are swathes of unpleasant, stupid comments. Apparently famous people and the royals are cloned and replaced, the government sprays us all with chemicals from planes, vaccines kill us but we should all buy high dose vitamins and supplements from eBay... And many more. Even articles about sad things have terrible comments blaming and shaming.

I blame the rise of parties like Reform and to be honest, the Tory party's descent into name-calling and character bashing when it was David Cameron and especially Boris, against Jeremy Corbyn. Those at the head of politics should hold themselves more respectfully because it has set the bar now.

There's obviously more to it, but I do think they were a terribly bad influence on the more uneducated and deprived, and to be honest it has taken advantage of their vulnerability and caused loutish, disrespectful behaviour to become the norm.

The UK is more lawless and the public of a much lower quality than many European counterparts, yes.

We seem to have vast swathes of people who conduct themselves with no decorum or shame whatsoever. Kids in grubby pyjama onesies out and about. Rubbish being thrown on the floor. Crappy music being blasted from phones in public. Men walking around sweaty and topless with ugly tattoos.

Sadly we’re just a shadow of what we used to be. I blame an overly generous welfare state that has allowed feckless people to keep regenerating themselves, each generation getting worse than the last.

Also a culture of devaluing education, suspicion of ‘the system’ and thick people being allowed access to the internet to give them a platform they don’t deserve and information they don’t understand.

Go and flame me, I don’t care

Because opportunities for beach days for those who don't live on the coast don't come round very often. Our unpredictable climate creates a sense of urgency around not wasting a hot Bank holiday and coastal breezes are very attractive when its 30+ in towns and cities.
Its been ten years since I've swam in the sea in the UK. Because when it's warm enough I'm at work, if I book it, the weather doesn't oblige, and I'm not within spontaneous 'popping' distance. I'm 'sensible' like you say and avoid it, and in doing so miss out on sonething I love, wasting my precious bank holiday in the house with the fan on. I can see why other people make a different choice.

It would never work here as too many people think the rules don’t apply to them. You need a society actively following all rules as well as a great deal of shame if you don’t. Every single time there’s a thread on mumsnet about someone being badly behaved or doing something out of the norm everyone starts with DON’T SHAME THEM YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT ELSE THEY HAVE GOING ON! You’ll never get a society like Japan without some shame for breaking social “rules”.

Someone is screaming and swearing at their kids? Don’t shame them you are only seeing a snapshot of their day and they might never normally do this and just be having an awful day.

Kids running around a restaurant or blaring something from their iPad? Don’t shame them they might have SEN and the parents might need a break.

A shop worker is being rude or ignoring someone? Don’t shame them they might have autism and not understand social norms.

Someone is always late? Don’t shame them they might have time blindness due to ADHD.

Someone very overweight is taking up most of your seat on a plane? Don’t shame them they don’t want to be fat either and it might be a health condition.

Someone turns up to an important posh event wearing a tracksuit? Don’t shame them they deserve to wear what is comfortable and why should they dress up to your boring party anyway?

Entire family leaving piles of rubbish on the beach and smoking and swearing the entire time? Don’t shame them they are likely poor and will never improve their lives so why wouldn’t they act like that?

Young people living on benefits and generally trashing places etc. Don’t shame them it’s not their fault the world is ruined so who can blame them they have no future!

I don't think social media is helping. All the stupid, ignorant people can egg each other on.
Bear in mind that years ago most people watched the news and read a newspaper. Now they get sucked into conspiracy theories and ignore common sense.

If they started up the public information campaigns again (don't litter, run across the road etc) only a small number of people would watch them or there'd be complaints they are too scary.

There is a private wild swimming place near me, been a few times and it’s beautiful and peaceful, if expensive to swim there.
In their wisdom they’ve advertised on facebook , cue hordes of people turning up with their loud music, screaming and shouting.
This is a ‘wellness retreat’ with yoga sessions etc.
It will serve them right if the regulars, who go year round and keep the place afloat, cancel their memberships. They have ruined their USP for greed

Everyone is the king and queen of their own truth nowadays

But it’s not just the UK

The explosion of the poison that is social media and accessibility of extreme porn.
Far too many are always on a hustle even in relationships so much seems transactional and yes you can park your car where you like because you can become aggressive if challenged and nothing will happen.

I hate aggressive over inflated egotistical men hate them and cannot fathom how any female gives them sex. I have boiled it down to money surely because it’s not personality. Transactional.

How can we have the 48th highest density out of 20 countries?

@Octavia64 signs are put up to warn people of the dangers of swimming in reservoirs, lakes rivers etc. There are families (one I know personally) who have lost loved ones in swimming incidents, they have raised money to go around schools, giving talks, handing out literature on keeping safe, yet every year as soon as the weather hots up several teenagers go missing and end up drowning. There have been 4 incidents just this weekend of emergency services pulling bodies from the water. Sadly many youngsters think they are invincible and it wont happen to them

I'm no fan of some of the modern parenting trends but this sort of thing was also happening back in the days when kids were belted.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdxnkydje7no

We have become more dishonest as a society so not surprising if other behaviour has slipped too. You see it on here all the time, this blasé attitude towards benefits fraud for example. People are just more shameless tbh.

I actually think it’s the other way round on politics, the reason some people want parties like reform if because our current political class seem to be utterly helpless in the face of violence, rape, deportation of criminals etc etc. I think they just want someone to be in charge and get shit done instead of faffing about with thoughts and prayers all the time.

We are at the point where some boys can rape some girls (on purpose, plan it and video and distribute it do plenty of evidence of intention) and don’t get a prison sentence because so soft fucker things criminalising rapists is worse than being an actual rapist. people are sick of this shit. They want order.

Valdo Calocane was released from psychiatric care because medical professionals were considering the sociological aspect of the high rates of young black men in psychiatric care, not whether he was safe or not. That there is not the right wing (not racist right wing) it’s social justice driven left. The chaos we are seeing is a direct consequence of this sort of bollocks.

funny thing is if you google 'Crime Rates in England past 40 years' you can learn that crime rates have been steadily and appreciably falling for the past 20 years. These are crime rates based on public surveys, not just crimes reported to the Police. So, actually, if criminality is the test, we English are better behaved than in the past. Makes you wonder why people are convinced everything is so terrible these days.

Typo. Should be 200.

Our society has always been like this and probably always will be. Most people don't park on double yellow lines and leave litter and start brawling ... but a significant minority do and always have done. (See apprentice riots, mods and rockers, skinheads, old art by Hogarth and Holbein.) This element just don't give a shit and the only thing that would stop them is more CCTV, facial recognition and severe punishments, which could happen in a more repressive regime. But do we want that? I think I do. But I dont want fascists in charge.

None of these things are new. News is more accessible these days. Didn't you watch shameless in the 00s? It wasn't based on some alternative universe. Drowning in summer has sadly always been a risk due to the cold water shock. We had this drummed into us at school as plenty of teens have died near us in the past.