AIBU to just tell my mum her judgement is pushing my brother away?

[Henristoycat]

Good morning all,
This week my mum is staying with us, and I have already in the first few days heard non-stop about her opinions of and issues with my brother, his wife and the life they live.
For context my brother is 36, he is married, has 2 children and lives a very nice life, you would think any parent would be delighted, however not my mum.
I have gotten quite lucky in that my idea of a good life happens to align with hers so I don’t face half the scrutiny my brother and his wife do.
I will note some of the issues

• My brother’s wife doesn’t work, and really never has. She is from a wealthy family, they are mortgage free thanks to her family. She completed her degree, two masters, worked briefly for a year and then had their first child and is a stay at home mum. She has various side projects, is extremely intelligent and a good mother. I don’t personally think it is anyone’s business how a family makes money if at the end of the day, they can support themselves, and provide their children with all they need.
• They live in a flat in a city centre, my mum fundamentally believes children should be raised in small villages or towns, with plentiful access to outdoor space, gardens, large homes. Again I don’t think one is inherently better than the other, both have their pros and cons. The children live near some of the best parks in London and aren’t exactly lacking in opportunities to play outside.
• My brother and his wife have hobbies …. Yes really that is a problem. His wife plays tennis, my brother golfs, they both occasionally enjoy playing poker (this hasn’t threatened their finances to my knowledge). My mum believes that it is poor parenting to leave the children with a babysitter occasionally to “indulge” in hobbies.
• They don’t visit her often, and don’t let her visit. To be honest I imagine this is because she is so bloody judgemental and is constantly criticising them. She also refuses to stay in their flat as you have to climb stairs so gets a hotel, but then complains she can’t navigate London alone so one of them have to go and get her each morning, walk her back to theirs and do the same in the evening.

She is insisting I to my brother and see if I can “sort him out” as he has clearly chosen his wife badly, raising his children badly and is hurting her.
She has now said as I refused to talk to him, I must agree with him and we have both let her down and she doesn’t know where she has gone wrong!
My dad thinks I should just say I will talk to him so she will stop asking, then not act on it, I think it’s pointless to say that.
What I actually want to do is tell her perhaps they keep a distance because she is so judgmental, critical and arrogant about her view of what is right. Both my dad and husband think I shouldn’t bother and that she might even have “some points” even if it isn’t technically her place to comment on it.

AIBU to think she is being absolutely crazy and after 4 years of listening to her witter on about how disappointing my brother and his wife are, to think I should just tell her, that her attitude may be the problem, not their parenting or lifestyle (which may not be to everyone’s preference but isn’t objectively bad)?

I think you need to be pretty blunt and say that you don’t want to hear anymore about what she thinks is wrong with your brothers lifestyle.
I wouldn’t appease her by saying you’ll have a word and then not following through because the next thing out of her mouth will be ‘and your sister agrees with me’.
My own DM said this to my brother over a family matter, I hadn’t agreed with her but I had tried to appease the situation by not really getting involved and not really saying anything.
The next minute I’m getting messages from my brother telling me how disloyal I was and that if I had a problem I should talk to him directly, which then got me riled because he knows our Mother has a history of half truths, misremembering etc
TBH our relationship is not what it was because of it, our DM has forgotten all about it now but things are still a little cooler between us siblings, probably because we are both stubborn and hurt that the other would think the worst of us, which has made things awkward for the siblings not directly involved.
Now if my Mum says anything I shut it right down and say it’s none of my business and none of hers either. She gets a nose out of joint for a while but now I don’t really hear anything about my siblings through her.
Your Brother and SIL are living a great life by the sounds of it, your nieces/nephews have a present parent, Mums are replaceable in the work place but not at home, sadly most of us have no choice but to work.
I don’t think any of her points are valid if they are as you have stated, and your loyalty should be to your brother in this case who isn’t doing anything wrong.
Your Mum sounds like she would prefer them to live a house in another area, both working all the hours to pay for things and no hobbies…. She is bonkers…

You need to tell your DM that it is none of her business or yours and that you do not want to keep hearing it. Every time she starts, shut her down.

Me too.

She sounds a bit like my MIL, who is an absolute know it all, thinks her way is just always the way everting should be done and her failure to understand other people have differing perspectives never ceases to amaze me. And that comes hand in hand with having zero ability to self reflect or accept criticism, it's just one enormous defensive wall that goes up at the first hint of push back.

So if that's what she's like, although it would be great for you to point this all out to her, you may well find you do so at risk of your own relationship with her. It's a shit situation because you either tell her how you feel and piss her off, potentially to the point of being pushed out, or she just continues to live in her ignorant, self righteous existence. There's no winning for you, but on the odd occasion I tell my MIL (politely) that she's being a dick, it makes me feel wonderful.

Assuming you mean that they are intelligent OP😃

It's difficult because you don't want to cause drama or upset anyone, which is understandable. It sounds like your mum sees you as the Golden Child and there's some parental triangulation that's happening, which I've experienced from the other side. You can't change your mum's behaviour or the words she says (if anything that will become more entrenched as she ages). What you can do is support your brother and SIL and be an ally for them. If they (and you) learn the grey rock method of communicating, it's likely to break the cycle to some extent, if your Mum has narcissistic tendencies (which it sounds like she might!). For me, it was (and still is - every day is a school day) about not encouraging or feeding the reaction. Staying as neutral as possible and keeping that guard up, for self-preservation.

As PPs have said, you can't choose your family. Your SIL will hopefully be in a lifelong marriage with your brother and they both sound great. Maybe you could look into things like narcissistic parenting and understand your brother's position better, so you can give him some resources to read (e.g. grey rocking, setting boundaries and feeling confident to go lower contact). The kindest things you can do is to be an ally to them (him mainly as your sibling) and to let them know that you have their backs. In my opinion, that will be a lot more impactful than anything you say to your mum or dad directly. If you give your brother the tools to manage it and give him the validation that you believe him, it will mean so much more in the future.

I agree with others that being clear about boundaries, communicating (again, with a very neutral tone) about what you do and don't want to discuss and staying consistent with it will also help.

I would just say "Mum you've had your chance to raise your kids how you see fit now it's Malcolm's turn"

I think you should shut her down as an example to your children that everyone is different and there is nothing wrong with that.

What is she hoping it will achieve if you talk to them? Is she genuinely expecting you can have a quick chat and they will move house, the wife will get a job and they will instantly cease all hobbies?! I can’t believe anyone else is indulging her. I wouldn’t want to spend time with her if I were them

Tell the ole b....h: Everyone has one life to enjoy (if possible) and they are doing it their way.

I agree. My Mum can be a bit like this and her go to line is 'I just want you/them to be happy'.

I once asked - do you really want us to be happy or do you just want us to do everything the way you would? She got a bit better for a while but this is her natural default so it always creeps back in.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with your brother’s lifestyle but it doesn’t matter in a way. He is an adult, it’s their choice how to live, children are safe.

I have a judgemental mother who comments ALOT about mine and my sister’s choices. I always push back. I do it politely but I do it relentlessly. In some cases I just do: it’s their life and their choices. In some cases I do a long speech with lots of arguments. In your situation I would be blunt but not entirely blunt. You can’t say : you are unpleasant to be around that’s why they don’t want to see you. (which is the truth, sorry) I would rather say something along the line that @Maray1967 suggested that they are grown up, children are healthy and safe, hobbies are good for mental health: have you seen the article about this Mum ? etc etc
No, I won’t talk to him, about what? It’s their choice where to live.
I would also point out more at differences e.g Gosh I would love to live in London and give DC so many cultural opportunities as DNs have.

Have your mum always listened to her parents? Has she lived the same style as them? Mine did and she just can’t comprehend why people might live differently, she still stuck in 70s ( or even worse).

By the way I suspect you won’t change her mind alone especially as your Dad is agreeing with her. You need an older relative or friend to point out it to your mum as well. She would dismiss your views as silly and childish.

That's generally the philosophy I take with my elderly mum as well.

She's, most of the time, a lovely woman, but she's lived her entire life in her comfortable upper-MC, white bubble, and has never had a reason to leave it. Her whole life, she's been surrounded by people exactly like her. Because of that, her world-views are quite narrow and judgmental.
One of my favourite phrases to use, when she's said something completely out of touch, is "Oh well! Wouldn't life be boring if we were all the same?!" I also like and use, "It takes all sorts to make a world."
She has somewhat mellowed with age, and generally shuts up when I crack out one of those sayings and pointedly change the subject.

Just tell her she’s the one with the problem so she needs to raise it, you’re not getting involved.

Easier said than done I know but I have a slightly wayward brother and have had to take this approach with my mum for my own sanity. The more air time you give her views, the more she’ll try to draw you in and get you on side.

Sorry, I shouldn't but this did make me laugh @Gonners I mean, you just can't win can you?! But it's horrible to know your DM is slagging you off to your sibling!

I honestly would say,” I think they’re doing just fine and I am not risking falling out with them. If you want to talk to them then you can, but please leave me out of it.” If she falls out with you over not agreeing then she is actually crazy! Perhaps dial back on contact for a bit until she stops talking about it?

She sounds quite spiteful and I can understand why your brother doesn't bother with her much. If she's happy to slate your brother and his family to you what's to say she isn't saying similar nasties about you to your brother? I'd tell her kindly fuck off with her spiteful rants and tell her does she wonder why they don't bother

Go with your brother. Your mother will not change. And I absolutely guarantee you that, if she isn't already, she will be deriding you and your lifestyle to others. If she does not get the craven subservience and adulation from your poor brother, who appears to have done nothing wrong, then a new victim will be required. Guess who that might be?

Sorry @Henristoycat - this is not your fault. I wonder, if you look back over the years, if there isn't more toxicity and appeasement that you have had to cultivate and "play along with"? You might like to have a look at the MN Stately Homes threads... or have a squint at Out of the FOG. What you describe is a sadly common theme there. Your dad is an enabler.

I agree with your DH that it's not worth challenging your mother outright - you are completely correct in what you are saying, but it will have no effect, and she may even enjoy your frustration and despair. The response suggested by @ChalkOutlines is the best one in this situation and then disengage as much as you are able to, because I absolutely guarantee that this is going to get worse as time passes and you need to remove yourself from the firing line that will, sadly, inevitably come your way - before it drags you under.

Support your brother. He is the one who is making the right choices and who, with his family, will bring you joy. His only "crime" seems to be building a happy life outside the sphere of toxicity and negative put-downs. Your mother's attitude will not change, may worsen, and the world of those who exist to appease and mollify her will shrink ever smaller as she turns her scorn on those who try and push back and they disengage and step away. You can be a part of that and continue to endure a life where the increasingly sole topic is the failings of others and your own shortcomings - or you can move beyond it, secure in the knowledge that you tried your best but it was sadly not enough, and enjoy a life and future with your wider family and the joy that they will bring you. It's not your fault; but you cannot change her. I'm sorry for your father - but he is an adult and if he is happy to stand by while she is abusive to their children and allows them to be flung under the bus to make his own life easier, then sympathies for him tend to evaporate.

I am also an unacceptable child. My sibling is the golden one. It hurts me deeply to know that a life of appeasement and acceptance of the mistruths about me is the one that has been chosen. I wish someone had spoken up for me. But that is my reality and I accept it. It's not about me - and yearning to be different and towing the party line at the expense of reason, kindness and compassion in order to appease an abusive and unchanging intransigent individual is not for me.

Wishing you happier times ahead. x 💐

Also I have a dad who's quite similar. I don't bother with him any more. He'd slate my sister rotten about everything. He even commented to me that she got really fat when pregnant with her twins. He would slate off her parenting and say that all her kids are spoiled brats with no discipline. He even told me that her son is disgusting to be gay and have a boyfriend because it's "not right and unnatural" I told him he can't say stuff like that. Difference is I told my sister what he says but she's still up his arse inviting him on her holidays cos he's apparently old and lonely when in reality she uses him to help her financially and help her with her kids so that's her choice. I choose not to bother any more as he started being quite nasty towards me and he's probably quite happy to slag me off to my sister whilst she happily listens nods and agrees

I think some parents feel that when their children make different lifestyle choices that it’s inherently a criticism of the choices they themselves made. They can then attack as a form of defence. It doesn’t make it ok, but because we sacrifice so much as parents and prioritise what we think is best for our children in every decision we make, we don’t want to think we got it wrong. In reality, making different choices to our parents doesn’t necessarily mean we think they were wrong, but we’re all individuals operating in a different context so what is right for others won’t always be right for us.

OP, did your mum work? Perhaps she sees your SIL being at home and feels guilty that she wasn’t, or that your brother thinks she should have been.

I have similar with my mother - endless judgment and desire for control. Are there cultural issues at play? The need to be this controlling, have your adult children follow your template of a good life, and feel the entitlement to criticize them if they don't, often seems to come from culturally-set entitlements to respect for elder's views. In any case, I would not bother telling her off, it will be hugely satisfying to you but do no good. She isn't going to change her way of thinking or being in her 70s/80s. I've been there done that and all I got for my troubles was months of sulking. Just tell her you don't share her views and would prefer to talk about other things. Learn to deflect, distract and glide past the grumbling. Focus on things you can bond over.

I think you have to approach this head on with, "Mum, do you realise how lucky you are? You have a son who is happily married, who does not have financial worries and lives a good and balanced life. Thirty or forty years ago, this is the life that your contemporaries would have lived, with the husband going out to work, a babysitter for nights out etc, it was quite normal and all of your generation appear to have survived really well. Instead of sniping about them, why don't we count our blessing that they are happy and contented... how many of your friends could honestly say that about their children?"

Then, as she has her caniption, ask if she would like a cuppa and then move on.

Playing devil's advocate here or at least an alternative perspective:
I am in my late 50s with older teenage children. We are poor and for all of their childhood (and still) we have lived in a tiny terraced house in a city. We have a tiny back yard/outside space which we have tried to make as nice as possible with flowers and pots etc. That little outside space was absolutely lovely, and in my opinion, so important for when the children were little, for playing with a sand table, playing with water squirters, planting seeds in pots - just to be able to potter outside in bare feet in the summer etc. But in no way was it comparable to my childhood of freedom and a bigger garden, having pets and playing in farmers fields! I would describe what my children had as a bare minimum free access to outside space, and once they got older it was actually difficult - no kicking a ball around, or anything like that. For info, we are a two minute walk from a park which contains a children's playground. Also 20 minutes away we have a splash park. It is absolutely not the same as having your own garden. It just isn't. I will always feel sad that they didn't have better. Of course thousands of children grow up living in flats out of necessity, but that doesn't mean it's optimal for children's happiness. We were/are poor and not in a position to live anywhere else. It sounds like the life of the brother and his wife is set up for their own happiness, not that of their children. On this, I think your mother has a point, especially as they seem well off.

Hobbies:
Hmm, you say occasionally children left with babysitter but what does occasionally mean? Leaving children with a baby sitter in the evening while your'e having a night out is one thing (not something I would ever have contemplated) but is this leaving children with a baby sitter for a day while husband is playing golf and wife is spending a day at the tennis club? Why can't they coordinate their hobbies so children are always with a parent?

Not staying at flat: Maybe she just doesn't want to and has come up with an excuse(s). I wouldn't want to stay in the home of a daughter in law if I wasn't close.

Poker: Both of them. Frankly that just sounds rather odd. And dangerous. Perhaps from the wife, it comes from her privileged life and she feels it's no risk.

Anyway, just an opinion!

How old is your mum? I am close to 60
so here are my takes…

1. like most mums my age thinks your brother is a prize, who feels he should have found a wife who feels the same, he is the provider and thinks her MIL is the head of the family. As a result of your brother’s marriage she’s pissed off they can live this lifestyle largely based on what her parents are providing. She has no bragging rights.
2. she’s scared. London is a big bad place and she doesn’t get it. Some mums would be delighted - imagine being able to stay in a gorgeous home and visit parks, galleries, theatres? It’s clear all of that scares your mum so she’s having a go at your brother instead. I think your bro and his wife sound great. They are not bringing up their kids in fear, and they get to see parents who have hobbies and lives. I think it’s the green-eyed monster and that’s hard to grapple with. Your mother is lucky to have a healthy, thriving family. I would point that out and leave it.

Put her in her place and don’t say a thing to ur bro and his wife. It was drag u into all this. Ur mum is a wannabe snob, and I feel sorry for ur brother and sil. No wonder they don’t want her in their home. Stop doing her dirty work and letting her vent about her family who don’t deserve it. What a cow.

Gawd she sounds dreadful. If she slags him off endlessly to you she could be saying things about you to others. Even if you think you have avoided her scrutiny.

Just tell her you're happy for your brother and he's happy too so so should she be. And swiftly change the subject. Tell her it's a tedious topic if you have to.