AIBU to think these boys should have been incarcerated?

[newrubylane]

BBC News - Teenage boys sentenced for raping lone girls
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clypg68e2neo

I've never started an AIBU before, but I'm genuinely really shocked. I'm just not sure how this sentence is justifiable. Their actions were premeditated and deliberate, they were carrying a knife and they filmed themselves. They're obviously a danger to women/girls, and probably to other boys too.

If anyone knows how and why this sentence might have come about, I'd be interested to hear it.

Just completed the form, managed not to rant. Mentioned the long term effects on the victims, and that the message the sentence sends to both boys and girls is irresponsible and misogynistic, also questioned whether the judge is fit to practise.

‘I should avoid criminalising these children unnecessarily’ Unnecessarily? Is there not a point at which they effectively criminalised themselves by repeatedly gang raping children. And if they do have sen surely they still need to be off the streets anyway

‘I should avoid criminalising these children unnecessarily’ Unnecessarily?

Indeed, something stupid like taking and driving a car but not actually causing an accident. Or shoplifting low value items for a dare. No need to criminalise that as a one off.

I've said this already on another thread, but I get a very strong sense at present that the judiciary in Western countries tend to view criminals as victims of society, and look long and hard for evidence of this so that they can exercise leniency. Actual victims seem to be a bit of an afterthought.

I was absolutely appalled at the judge's comments and the derisory sentencing. I will be following the lead of this thread and completing the relevant form together with emailing my MP.

DH is 72 and retired but was a barristers clerk for the majority of his working life. He still takes a great interest in the law and has frequently said that he cannot imagine how some of these judges have ever made it to the bench. The lack of awareness and the sheer stupidity, as in this case, full him with despair.

Exactly, these are not just adolescent mistakes - they are absolutely harrowing crimes.

It’s not often that I’m speechless. I’ve also sent an objection

Read the story and yes, they should have been locked up. These are serious crimes. They criminalised themselves.

Much like @FinchiePink and @Backedoffhackedoff have pointed out we don’t know all the information here.

realistically if they got a custodial sentence it would likely be less than 3 years due to their ages/mitigating factors. Therefore the longer community sentence is actually a better outcome.

not much can be achieved in a custodial sentence. The rehab, assessments etc you are suggesting mostly do not happen in lots of custodial settings, they are more likely to happen in the community.

people are confusing justice for children with justice for adults. Sentences/custody/inteventions/assessments etc are not the same or comparable. Community orders are more effective and better resourced than most youth custody establishments.

they have been criminalised, they will now have a criminal record and this will show on their record. They have an unspent conviction for rape (x however many they have been charged for).

they will be 18 by the time they finish these orders and have time to mature and learn consequences and understand why they should never repeat this behaviour. It may not feel like justice as saying lock them up ‘feels’ more justified. But in reality it is just not as effective at preventing this happening again. Surely that’s the outcome everyone wants is for this behaviour to be prevented in the future - if so this is how. The people in these courts including the judge have all the facts and know how the system works. It is apparent most on here do not.

I’m normally all for rehab and Nordic style penal
systems but with these crimes we need the full prison experience.
They may have low IQ on paper but they were clever enough to know where to catch their victims and that threatening them with a knife would work.

It’s almost impossible to believe. Crimes of violence against women and girls really are treated as trivial.

A gang of teenage boys rape a young girl, leaving her so traumatised she no longer wants to live. They cheer each other on, joyfully filming their crime, and go on to rape another even younger victim, who now suffers from terrifying flashbacks.

And they get away with it! The idiot judge wants to “avoid criminalising these children unnecessarily”. They have criminalised the themselves, while ruining the two victims’ lives. The girls must have felt sick when the idiot judge said they could take comfort in knowing they had been very brave.

As a teacher I’d hope you’d know better than to use the phrase ‘child pornography’.

Those poor girls and their families.
They are so brave and their strength of character to do this, especially when they are so young and traumatised is amazing.
I hope they know how much people do see them and do see what happened to them.

I agree that the sentences seem unduly lenient and I wish the rapists had been sent to prison. Yes, they're very young and need professional help to try to rehabilitate them, but they're also old enough to know that what they did is seriously wrong, so it's unjust not to punish them. The fact that they shared video footage of the attacks on social media is a massive aggravating factor - the effect on those poor girls must be immense. I hope they are somehow able to recover from this.

Thank you to those who applied to have the sentences reviewed - I wasn't sure this would be possible without knowing the defendants' names.

They can get the help they need to be safe members of society while they are incarcerated imo. Rehabilitation and incarceration aren't mutually exclusive.

In case it has got lost here is the link to appeal the sentance again:
https://submit.forms.service.gov.uk/form/696/apply-to-have-an-unduly-lenient-sentence-reviewed/UrNqWVsY

And the case details:
https://www.cps.gov.uk/wessex/news/three-teenage-boys-sentenced-after-two-girls-raped-separate-attacks

That's a lot of words to justify the fact that they're unpunished for a gang rape.
Being found guilty will affect their lived in zero meaningful way, given their background.
And they will do this again. Probably at least one of then will kill someone.

In a sane society that didn't hate women and girls, gang and violent rapes would have life sentences, as it's the only way to keep women safe.

You make some very good points @Sworkmumespecially about the level of rehabilitation in the community vs within custody. And I agree with you that these males should not be treated as adults because they are not.

But, I think that there is a huge point that you are missing, which is many people, including the PCC for Hampshire, have concerns that the sentences given out today concentrate purely on the rehabilitation of the offenders. That there is no tangible sense of justice for the 2 girls who have been raped multiple times.

The court appears to have concentrated on the needs of the offenders rather than the rights of the victims.

Judges do get things wrong sometimes and today may well be one of those occasions.

Two girls were gang raped at knife point. The attacks were filmed. I really don't think the boys responsible should be living at home, or free to go out on the street.

That judge is not fit for purpose.

If they had life sentences then that would be different. But in reality if they were given custodial sentences. They wouldn’t be anywhere near that length and would likely be less than the 2 years.

Im not disputing the sentences seem lenient, but I am saying that in reality the way it works, this likely is the best option for rehabilitation and a longer term. This will not likely feel good enough justice for their victims, I am not saying that is wrong either. But if we want to prevent further victims working within the framework we have, this is likely the best options

So what would you suggest for the punishment aspect? Sentencing shouldn’t just be about rehabilitation for something this serious. The victims deserve justice.

I agree, it is a difficult balance to strike and i
am not saying this is right. However a 3 year YRO is the max community sentence available. Any longer would have had to be a custody sentence (of which 50% would have been served in the community anyway) and would likely delay the intervention needed to prevent future victims as it is unlikely they would have been in a custodial setting well resourced enough to address the issues.

im not saying this is the right answer, ideally they would have been given custodial sentences and placed in custody in a specialist setting equip to manage the risk and address this to reduce the likelihood of repeat behaviour. But these setting do not exist and funding for them does not exist.

this is potentially why the judge made the decision they did.

It’s always difficult in cases such as these and I do feel hugely for the victims as I do not feel this reflects full justice for them and what they have experienced. But with some insight I can see why the sentences that were passed were. However not privy to the details within the court room/reports etc to fully know.

I just think in these situations people are quick to say ‘lock them up’ without thinking of what this does to the risk of future offending and therefore future victims. It’s a very much out of sight out of mind and that almost locking them up becomes justice, when actually it doesn’t most of the time, address the issues needing to be addressed.

Their piunishment aspects will be likely in unpaid work, supervision and a curfew among other things there are lots of options that are unlikely to be made public so we will probably never know. A criminal record and something that will remain on their record which will impact their future. This is no different than custody except from removing their freedom (however this would be for a very short time in the long term)

it’s understandable people want punishment, but realistically it is about rehabilitation as this is the only way to prevent future offending and future victims. I doubt that any amount of punishment will take away what has happened to these victims or make them feel any better about the situation in the long term either. They deserve immense support and a say in what happens, but working within the current law for this may not allow for what they feel should be the outcome.

it is understandable for people including the victims to want punishment, but ultimately, then what? Something has to come next and work to prevent this reoccurring is that.

Yes, a custodial sentence for youth offenders would be shorter, but the argument that a community order is therefore 'better' assumes rehabilitation is actually happening. Youth Rehabilitation Orders are chronically under-resourced and compliance is inconsistently enforced. The evidence that they are more effective than custody in cases of serious violent and sexual offending is far from settled.
The criminal record point is technically true but misleading. Crucially, youth convictions become spent far sooner than adult ones, and many employers, universities and licensing bodies will never see them. That is a very different proposition to presenting this as meaningful long-term accountability.
The 'we don't know all the facts' argument cuts both ways, as we also don't know that the judge got this right. That is precisely why the Unduly Lenient Sentence scheme exists.
Finally, suggesting that people questioning this outcome simply 'don't understand how the system works' is not an argument. It's a way of shutting down legitimate concern. The system is not beyond criticism.