To think compulsory national service for young people could be helpful for many?

[Jane379]

The recent thread on benefits generational cycle got me thinking...could compulsory national service period help some young people, including ones like these?

Or would it make things worse?

Britain doesn't need to copy any particular system exactly though so it doesn't matter that there isn't a perfect enough example to use. We know national service can work and be popular in a country, the UK is already used to women serving in the military (though again, national service does not need to be military at all) so including women is not a big leap, and we ought to all know that society, even British society, can adapt to change.

It matters very much to the claim about British exceptionalism.

We do not already know that the model OP proposes can work. Saying societies can change isn't an argument that it would because it also means society could change to make it less viable.

On the issue of compulsory military service for women - the obvious example here is Israel, where women are enlisted and there is broad consensus for this across society.

Isreal is a very interesting example because almost all young people serve (men and women), except for Palestinian citizens of Israel and the Ultra Orthodox Jewish community (with a few notable exceptions). It is interesting to me that women fare pretty well in Israel (at least compared to regional norms), but Palestinian citizens and ultra orthodox communities are both very marginalised. This is why it is important to have as many types of people as possible participating if a scheme exists - because those that don’t can easily start to get left behind if they don’t have a record of service.

In Singapore, NS is compulsory for all men, and starts with fitness. If you don't pass their physical fitness test (sit-ups, pushups, and running) or are obese they start with training and weight management.

Now this sounds like a good idea...can we start with all the obese people who missed out on NS last time round - i.e. the 83 year olds and under?

Presumably they must have some exceptions on health grounds and disabillties?
My oldest son haa type 1 Diabetes, he cant join the UK millitry regardless of how fit he is.

Singapore is not an example to follow.

Obviously Singapore is a completely different society from the UK. I just spent 2 weeks there and found it extremely interesting to see such a different way of being! It was nothing like what I was expecting, though.

I just thought this was an interesting start to a military service- I would love a boot camp which helped me get strong and in shape (I am a 60 year old woman).

To answer another poster's point, servicemen with diabetes are exempt from strenuous work and given medically safe vocation postings.

Britain can take any system and adapt it to fit, but thinking it absolutely cannot try is British exceptionalism, thinking that Brits will never accept it is British exceptionalism, thinking Brits will try and evade it as a much higher rate than young people elsewhere is British exceptionalism.

Again, no it isn't exceptionalism because that would require thinking Britain is exceptional. And actually, there being bugger all appetite for compulsory, dual sex national service is globally common. This is a fact. Britain is the opposite of exceptional in this respect.

We can all come up with hypotheticals of Britain becoming a completely different society where this might fly, they're just pointless. If you fast forward a century or two and Britain is like North Korea, we'd perhaps have it. If civilisation has collapsed by then and we're all living in mud huts, we won't.

The Israeli exceptions are quite substantial! Especially for women. As well as the ones you mention, Druze women are also exempt, which is interesting because as a community they're extremely pro army and the men are known for military service.

Any Jewish woman stating she maintains a religious lifestyle is also exempt if wished, so it's not just those who'd identify as ultra-Orthodox. Modern Orthodox/Dati Leumi women fall into that category as well, whereas the men mostly join the IDF. A lot of the women from those communities do an alternative non-military national service instead, but by no means all.

From what I can tell though, this is going to stay a big issue in Israel as the Haredis become a bigger percentage of the population.

I think the army has better things to do that have to educate young people who don't want to be there, have a variety of behavioural issues and who would never make a positive contribution if the country was at war...

Their job is not to act as surrogate parents or prop up the education system.

You can fuck right off with that. This isn't the 1950s. National service was abolished because the armed forces were sick of having to babysit unsuitable and unwilling recruits that were completely useless to them.

Yeah, it's pretty totalitarian, and woe betide anyone who doesn't fit in.

I always think those who advocate national service are always the ones who are old enough to safely avoid it. I also don't think anyone owes their country anything, other than to obey the law and pay their taxes.

However, given the high levels of youth unemployment I think it would be helpful to have an entitlement for every youngster who isn't in work to have a paid placement for 3-6 months so that they can gain experience and then be more attractive to employers. I think there are schemes but you have to be claiming UC for x amount of time and a lot of kids don't so they fall off the NEET radar altogether.

I think employers bleat a lot about the expense of training people but they just want to poach from other employers. They should all do their bit to train the workforce.

Yes, I wouldn't advocate Singapore as a model for this, definitely.

I can see what you mean but I don't think that's why Haredi are marginalised. Haredi women often work in some way without of issue and if anything most Israelis want Haredi men to work. The issue is that Haredi religious authorities prefer to men to study scripture as much as possible (ideally all day) and do not recognise Israel as legitimate (as the Messiah has not yet come) so don't believe military service is legitimate for Haredi men (moreover, it would disrupt their Torah study which they see as spiritually protecting Israel)

This sounds good overall to me.

People are killed in Israel for refusing to serve?

This, people shouldn't assume those with ADHD by default can't serve.

No, for serving. Or, in fact, for just living there these days.

Bob Dylan once sung, ‘join the army if you fail.’

So many people would never want to be forced into this and, for many, joining the army was only an option due to lack of other opportunities. It was a last resort and often for kids looking to escape poverty.

Some would benefit but I’m not sure of the real long term benefits and, knowing the UK, could possibly end up costing taxpayers more than any resulting benefit.

Now, Bob Dylan may also have been stoned when he wrote those lyrics but I know what he meant.

This isn't accurate. Modern warfare clearly still does involve boots on the ground too (Ukraine is only the most obvious example) and many people in the UK military have made clear we should not assume Putin would only target via drones (whether us, or more likely, another European NATO member)

As pp said, the well off shouldn't necessarily be able to opt out, and this doesn't by default happen in other Euro countries (Natsku mentioned European partliament's son). We shouldn't assume some well off will always spoil things by avoiding and there's nothing we can do about that.

Also, BrownBookshelf, you mentioned Ursula von der Leyen's kids but that is a but different as it was voluntary during that period.

Re NI, I understand the history makes exemption crucial if this did happen.
But in theory, it seems unfair for people in NI who don't want to be part of the UK to disrupt conscription in that way. Some people in Scotland and Wales want to be independent, but they don't have a right to disrupt conscription, at least arguably, as most Scots and Welsh want to stay in UK. Most in NI want to be part of UK, too.

I know an exemption would be crucial : it just seems arguably unfair.