To think compulsory national service for young people could be helpful for many?

[Jane379]

The recent thread on benefits generational cycle got me thinking...could compulsory national service period help some young people, including ones like these?

Or would it make things worse?

I suspect conscription in various countries if compared will all be quite different.
And what another country ( I assume French speaking ) as your username is ‘To arms citizens’ or words to that effect, does cannot simply be transported to the UK and for it to automatically work here.

Ah right, yeah, it can't be universal in that sense as not everyone is fit to serve, though having a lower standard requirement for non-military service would be helpful - no reason why something with AHDH or anxiety couldn't do some voluntary work (and might be extremely beneficial in the latter case) but autism would have to be case by case.

Or the people who get killed.

One, Northern Ireland. This means either a legal or functional opt out for anyone living in one of the four constituent countries of the UK, which immediately undermines the universal concept.

Two, because people who didn't want to do it and had better options would take them. If you think it's about a need for exemptions you have the wrong framework: people with enough resources would exempt themselves if they felt like it. The UK, unlike Finland, does not have a land border with Russia which means that our privileged would have more incentive to be like Ursula von der Leyen's kids than Roberta Metsola's. If we were close enough that we knew the people who did Bucha and similar were on our doorsteps, it might be different. It isn't.

'Generally'. Think you might need a slightly larger sample than your husband there.

There's a larger sample right here on this thread

What would be the better options for people with resources? Bribed medical exemptions? That could be avoided by only allowing assessment by specific medical professionals. What else?

I wasn't actually thinking of bribed medical exemptions, although that could very much be a thing. No, I meant simply going elsewhere.

The question was 'which other countries?' A bunch of whataboutery doesn't change the fact that other countries conscript.

Conscripts in my country are regularly polled on satisfaction with conscription, with an average of 4.3 (on a scale of 1-5) so very satisfied. Also people in general are polled on their approval of conscription - its very high. Amongst under 25s, so the people most affected by conscription, its 80%. Is that a large enough sample?

And still entirely insufficient.

Though even if we had proof of 100% approval rate from other countries here on the thread, it still wouldn't be a good argument because so many of them aren't at all comparable. Natsku often brings up how the Finnish system works well, which I don't doubt, but Finland is next to Russia.

edit- cross posted there! But again, you never explain why a country who have a land border with a neighbour who likes to regularly invade places and pulls shit like Bucha is a relevant example for a society where none of this applies.

So leaving the country until they age out? I suppose they could do that but how many would rather spend 12 years (based on an age out age of 30, like in my country) in exile compared to 12 months or less in service?

Funnily enough, I think my DS with ADHD might really love it. He loves Scouts and generally anything with firm, clear boundaries.

I wouldn’t see ADHD as something that should necessarily be a barrier, maybe should be judged on a case by case basis.

Edit - I have said up thread that I don’t think we should do a mandatory version, but perhaps have a voluntary one that we make actually attractive

I expect Belfast would see a property boom!

But the answer is more than zero, which is a problem. This matters when the oldest of the birth dearth generation are already in high school (rates started to drop about 2013-4). We simply cannot afford to give our young people such substantial incentives to emigrate. Do remember that millions of our young adults have EU citizenship or can access it through eg an Irish grandparent, so free movement is an option not even for just the richest.

No basis to assume the ageing out point would be as high as 30 either.

They'd be able to simply move if they didn't like it. Like people always suggest when others say that taxes for the richest need to rise.

My son is physically disabled so would easily be exempt. It would be the only time I'd ever be grateful for his obvious disability as I think he'd hate it.

Though my point was really about some people on this thread would clearly want to target certain young people and those people would be the ones most likely to be exempt for medical reasons which if you don't want to do it anyway, you would jump at to try and get out of it.

There's strong support for conscription in Switzerland, which is not facing immediate invasion.

How about making people do this for the year before they become eligible for state pension? I'm sure the country can benefit from all that experience.

What's good for the goose and all.

There's not strong support for universal conscription as this thread discusses, since it applies only to men and the numbers of women volunteering are low. Revealed preference. I can't imagine anyone being daft enough to think male only national service in the UK would fly.

Though in Switzerland's case, I think their support for partial conscription is probably more about the social contract than geography. I mentioned upthread that the countries who have conscription generally are at least one of much more authoritarian than the UK, regularly attacked by a neighbour or offer younger people a greatly superior social contract. Put bluntly, people aren't going to put up with everyone having a couple of years of their lives commandeered followed by tuition fees and interest rates like we've got.

Fair enough. But it could be a way of rebuilding that social contract, if done properly.

It's ecenomically impossible in the current climate our ratio of working ages adults working to older adults who have stopped working is already tipping us into an epic crisis. To take an entire cohort out of potential productive work year on year would a very bad idea.

Mmm, I can't see how 'compulsory' national service for not all of the UK that people can leave to avoid is is going to achieve any part of that. So many better things we could use the money for, including voluntary training programmes for those that want them. Plus as @hettie points out, our population pyramid simply doesn't allow us to do anything that'll drive some young people away!

The armed forces don't want NEETS, they want technologists who understand modern warfare is drones, robots and computer networks. The days of sending soldiers over the top to be mown down by machine guns, while the generals downed another pink gin are past.

I bet someone will be along to say that NEETs are all good at video games as that is all they do all day long. So they would be good at flying drones etc.

Reminds me of the British guy who went to Ukraine to fight with no military experience whatsoever apart from playing Call of Duty.

My kids are motivated, hardworking, doing well in school, volunteer, on sort of paths to futures the last thing they need is a hiatus of playing toy soldiers somewhere.
How about OPTIONAL service, that gives kids real opportunity if they want/need it, and pays decent money, and gives them actual
useful skills. Rather than forcing everyone - but let’s face it, the well off will find exemptions for their offspring- to do some pointless national
service.