To exclude sibling from wedding due to their lifestyle choice?

[Salitnan]

This will be incredibly identifying to anyone who knows my family and quite controversial but it’s such a bloody niche situation that nobody can relate to and it’s hugely stressing me out. I’m not writing this as ragebait or to troll, it is a genuine situation I am dealing with.

I’m getting married next year. My partner of 5 years is from a very traditional, right-wing Eastern European country. My partner however is very tolerant and chill, as are most of his immediate family who also live in Western countries.

We’ve decided to get married in his home country, as it’s very affordable there and we can have a beautiful package in an area of outstanding natural beauty, and he can invite his dear godparents who he adores (and they adore him) who are scared of flying.

This is all well and good but one of my family members is presenting an issue. My brother (who is an adult in their mid-20s) has a learning disability. This is not a problem, but in the past year they have come out as transgender. This has been a massive struggle for us as there were no signs previously and it came out of nowhere, and they have insisted they are going ahead with the transition and they self-harm if anyone misgenders them or politely reminds them of etiquette in public places regarding toilets, or wearing appropriate clothing for a social situation etc. It has been extremely hard work for my aging parents, he lives with them full time. The learning disability alongside being transgender makes them massively vulnerable and they get stared at in public and often started on when in the city centre by lads, and they aren’t aware of their vulnerability. They insist on dressing incredibly provocatively (wig and heels, provocative clothes) as they say they feel insecure otherwise, and when I have tried to explain to them that women don’t necessarily dress like that, they self-harm. They insult people in public, not to their face, they will say it to my mum (will whisper in her ear “he looks like a twat”), but sometimes people have overheard and started on him and my mum has had to explain about his disability and fend them off.

I’m already in therapy to deal with complex feelings towards them from how they dominate my parents lives and how I felt neglected as a child due to the focus on them and their vulnerabilities. The recent coming out as transgender has brought up a lot of old resentment I had towards him which I had buried, and I’m trying to have the therapy so that I can have a bond with him going forward, but I can’t help but feel a sort of anger at him, and I hate myself for it.

Back onto the wedding topic - I’ve realised I simply don’t want them at the wedding. My fiancé’s family are nice people and wouldn’t be a danger to my brother but many of my fiancé’s extended family members are from a small isolated village in a Catholic Eastern European country and he will be stared at like a hawk, whispered about. To he quite frank he will stick out like a sore thumb with his clothes and hair. As awful as it sounds I will be embarrassed by him and on edge, and won’t be able to enjoy my day. My partner says he’ll notify everyone in advance that my brother will be there and what to expect but I just really can’t be doing with the stress of it all. It’s not just family it’s the the staff in the hotel, other members of the public around who might be drinking, and they will need to stay in the country a few days around the ceremony so lots of opportunity for things to go wrong. They have severe social anxiety due to their learning disability and have been known to sneak alcohol as a way to deal with this and this further increases their vulnerability as they lose their filter and say their mind in front of people.

I did try to compromise and said to my mum I’d be happy to have them if if they would be willing to tone down their dress in order to come to the wedding - dropping the wig and toning down their clothes, but they have become angry at this suggestion and have refused.

I’ve told my mum it may be the case that I can’t invite them, and therefore my parents can’t come either as they are his carers. My mum says she understands and we can have a do later on back in the UK.

I just want my day to not be dominated by him. I also don’t want to have to change the wedding plans that me and my partner are happy with just to suit him. Am I an awful person?

OP you have been made second to you brother by your parents your whole life. It's your wedding - don't make yourself second to him. He's made it very clear how he'll dress and behave and the day will be all about him. Have the wedding you want, in the country you want. It's a shame your parents won't be able to come either, but largely that's down to them. They haven't prepared him for any other life than them accommodating him.

Dear @Salitnan
Your brother is a manipulative entitled wazzock.
He is trying to punish you for falling in love.
He punishes your parents for not pandering to his every whim.

The method he is using is irrelevant.
He and your parents need regular respite arrangements.

If your parents want to come to his wedding while he is in respite so be it.
If they prefer that you have a Europe party and a UK party so be it

but DO NOT let your brother rule your lives

This, it’s ridiculous isn’t it!! “Don’t you know? You are not a person of worth, you are a support human, who is not allowed to have anything of their own “

Your sibling is a complex challenge, they are vulnerable due to learning difficulty and have seen how to use that to get attention and what they want. Self harming is a cry for help too. It's utterly sad but they made choices to be like it, so wholly on them.

The transgender matter is highly personal, likely another cry for attention, but who knows. I hope they don't go through medical transition as its difficult to reverse should they realise their mistake in the future. 😢

You and your parents are sadly victims of this, but you don't need to continue to be a victim, you can choose otherwise and let that anger go because as we all know, the only person who feels your anger is you.

How about not inviting your parents and sibling to the wedding and instead have a civil wedding in the UK and a smaller family gathering afterwards so noone is left out. I honestly think your parents don't know how to get out of it. I doubt they want to miss your wedding.

The self harming is either genuine and so surely needs further intervention, or it's a deliberately manipulative tactic which also needs intervention. I'm so sorry for you and your parents, and he I viciously doesn't have the social awareness of how to dress as a woman in various social events but to not listen and go so far as to.self harm, would he actually really come to harm or has he come to serious harm in the past if anyone has stood up to hi..and not done as he says when he begins to self harm?.

In a sense the wedding dilemma opens up other issues which will need addressing at some point most importantly how to ensure your and dad get a break and that arrangements for his care, once your mum and dad aren't around, are planned for. I know you say he refuses respite but can that be revisited with his SW? Would he be a candidate for supported living in the future? Would a PA relieve some of the burden from your mum? Wedding wise I wouldn't invite him, have a lovely and beautiful day and then have something low key at home with your mum and dad.

If it's the country that I think it is, this is very likely to happen.

I'd love to say hide their passport ... Close enough to the wedding that they can't get a new one in time 😅. But I know that's pure evil 🤣

I don't know op, I completely understand your predicament. It's not YOUR judgement, it's not even the worry of judgement from others, it's the worry your brother may do/say something and cause a scene. As I'm sure if they were transgender or had a disability, but they knew how to behave in public, this wouldn't be an issue. But, even if they do behave, their presence is going to put additional worry and stress on you, as you know what they are capable of, and clearly have a habit of making things awkward. It's not really fair when you just to want to be able to enjoy your special day. I can't imagine having to feel on edge on my wedding day, due to someone who I didn't even want to be there in the first place.

Manipulation isn't necessarily a conscious decision. Often, people with LDs have maladaptive coping strategies and they behave as they do because it works. It's that simple. I'm not excusing any behaviour, or suggesting that it should be accommodated by @Salitnan but I don't think it's helpful for people to be talking as if this is a deliberate, planned behaviour. It likely isn't. It is likely that the brother really isn't thinking about any impact he is having on, well anyone, really.

I think there's a huge difficulty in the terminology around LDs. 'Mild' sounds synonymous with 'trivial' or 'insignificant', but mild LDs have a huge impact on people.

@Salitnan my DD1 is similar to your brother, in that her LD is hard to quantify. She's always gone to special school but her vocabulary is a lot wider than you'd expect, and it masks her lack of understanding.

I hope you find a solution you can make peace with. I am very thankful that my DD is a girl. I can imagine how much harder it would be to cope with her presentation if she was the size of, and had the strength of, your brother.

That is so far away from what she is saying. Do you just come on here to be unkind?

This is not true. Any marriage that was recognised in the country where it happened is also recognised in the UK. However, they would have to get their marriage certificate translated and notarised.

Regardless of someone being transgender, if my sister always dressed really provocatively and I had a dress code at my wedding and they refused to adhere to it, they would also be uninviting themselves. I have absolutley no problem with trans people, but it doesn't mean you get special treatment to be the centre of attention at my wedding by dressing in a "look at me" way and acting like a rude dickhead with no "filter".

YABU for the repeated misgendering. YANBU to retract the invitation.

In certain Slavic countries, godparents are extremely important. Omitting them from the wedding would be hurtful - they're often deemed to be more important than siblings.

ETA They're usually the best man and best maid from the parents' wedding.

I would say don't let your bro come. Explain to them as gently as you can manage and hope they doesn't freak out, but do it anyway, and explain that it would be uncomfortable for everyone - including him.

There's too much that could go wrong BUT it's clear that even if it went 'as well as possible in the circumstances', it would still be awful.
You don't need to use words like 'awful' to your bro, you could say 'highly challenging' etc.

This could be a useful wake-up call for them. His actions have consequences, and if they act out in this way, there are normal social consequences, and not coming to your wedding is a normal consequence, and is a natural price he has to pay for his unfortunate attitude.

It's a pity that society generally tends to back off if someone says they are trans, because most of us want to be welcoming and friendly, and we sometimes don't know what to do when put in new unusual positions. It's a bit like when someone tries to manipulate by, for example, 'playing the race card' but it's more complicated than that. It's scary for me to even say that. Some people here will doubtless take offence at that. So no wonder we sometimes really don't know what to do, and react by letting people take advantage of our easy going nature.

Good luck ! I hope you decide to tell them they can't come and that it doesn't go too horribly when you tell them. I really do think it's best all around including your poor bro. Just a shame for mum and dad. Awful situation for you.

I think posters saying you should just have a small wedding where you are for the sake of your DM are being incredibly unfair and I hope you don't listen to them. You deserve a nice wedding. Your partner deserves a wedding in his home country as much as you do. All his relatives that won't be able to make it here are just as valid as your brother. You would both prefer it there. That's a no brainer IMO.
I think the absolute kindest way around this would be to possibly have a tiny registry wedding here with your parents and brother, so they actually get to see you let married FIRST. Something special for them to experience that they can cherish. Then go over there and do the whole shebang and ENJOY every moment without a care in the world.

perhaps you can reframe it in your mind. It could be argued that you would be protecting them and your parents if they stayed at home. It’s one thing to attract attention at home in a familiar environment where you are known, and another in a strange place where the culture is less accepting.

if it’s a real possibility they could be threatened or attacked then it’s kindest for them not to go, and perhaps another celebration could be held at home

This here. The self harming. This would be an instant no. This is your reason for the no.

he is too much of a risk to himself to take abroad. Travel insurance, hospital stay if bad, his inability to talk to strangers.

Will he self harm if anyone challenges him being a bloke in a dress? Stopping him from using ladies toilets? Telling him what he’s wearing isn’t appropriate? The risk of self harm in a culturally conservative country would be higher. If so that’s too much stress to put upon him and your parents. It would be unfair to him and he should stay home.

add in the risk of arrest because laws are different there. And his apparent attitude and aggression. Could you or your parents feasibly afford the legal costs AND replacement tickets if he fucked ip badly and had to be sent home?

It’s OK to say he is not safe to travel!

yes this means your parents can’t attend BUT there’s nothing you can do stop you from having a second celebration in the UK.

Just because they are a sibling it doesn’t mean you have to like them or have anything to do with them. They clearly make you unhappy, why stress yourself out over this, don’t invite them, your parents sound like they understand.
i imagine you have already, but if you haven’t, I’d suggest that another time have a 1:1 with your mum to express your concerns about the sibling’s impact on your parents lives and relationship with you, and put the ball in their court to deal with it. The sibling isn’t your problem.

How much understanding does he have that there will come a time, probably quite soon if your parents are in their 70s when he will either have to accept care from others or live in some sort of group home. To be honest I think it would be a good thing if your parents did start that process sooner rather than later otherwise their remaining years will be dominated by worry over his future.

Congratulations on your wedding plans, I think you are making the right decision, I don’t think his intransigence about his “ transition” has much to do with his other needs, it sounds as though he has decided to make life as uncomfortable and difficult for others as he can.

So sorry OP and I really hope you have a great day and also get to celebrate somehow with your parents and sibling.

Depending which country there may also be legal issues.

It sounds really difficult. I hope your parents have a long term care plan. I am a bit older and have a partner with a very manipulative sibling who has diagnosed MH issues as well. Unfortunately as the parents got older they seemed to be isolated and in turn isolated the sibling, who has not received professional help as an adult. With young DC it is really difficult, borderline marriage wrecking. I also have a DH problem as he will not set any boundaries. The long term care plan is also really important for the sibling as parents do get too old/ill to manage.

@balabusta Yes, I know couples who've done this too.

I wholeheartedly agree with @Petrolitis.

OP, your brother clearly understands the concept of manipulation. He uses it to shut you and your parents up when he realises he’s not getting his own way.

Your whole life must have been dominated by this selfish, entitled man. Please do not let him spoil your special day.

In my view you do not have to invite someone who would be making a scene at your wedding. It is the same as asking someone who is always violent in social settings. So don't invite your brother. Give your parents a lovely hand written invitation. Have a lovely Reception when you return home for everyone you like who was unable to travel. Personally I would try not to have your brother there either to spoil that day.

I would not have someone at my wedding who would feel probably out of control, would possibly self-harm and/or would take up my parents entire attention for the day anyway, however they presented.

It's almost not fair on him to ask this of him, he's not got the social skills to cope and will struggle out of his social environment terribly.

I have seen exactly these type of situations with local people who have LD and they are often accompanied by many carers at once due to issues with mutism, running off, lack of danger perceptions, self-harming and many of them wear inappropriate clothing of all types (PJs to shops, Father Christmas outfits not at Christmas, women's clothing when bulky man) and it attracts more negative attention and problems from others.

I would not hesitate to separate the two things out, get married over there with your partner's family and then have a separate ceremony or celebration back in the UK and ideally somewhere your brother will feel safe and supported.

Longer-term, it would be better for your brother to be in supported housing where he's likely to make more friends and experience life outside the home where he's essentially terrorising everyone into doing what he wants as they are scared he will self-harm or that he can't cope.

That's not your responsibility though, and all you can do is take yourself off out of the situation as much as you can, and keep yourself and your family sane, and interact on your own terms and to your own family's benefit in the future- this may involve limiting contact or sticking with his familiar places and areas and not challenging him to be in social situations that are simply beyond what he's going to be able to cope with.

Your parents will dread taking him abroad, in the airport, in the hotel, on the day and they may be happier with a way out which allows them to celebrate with you another time. Or marry in the UK, brief ceremony, and do a blessing and big event there without them.