To wonder what else can be done to break the cycle of generations living off benefits?

[Allonthesametrain]

Sounds harsh because It is. As a former teacher, then eduation social worker, now the past few years more heavily involved with school attendance.

My desire has always been to help children from unprivileged backgrounds to know their worth and achieve the best they can and this has been my career from age 23 to 57.

The number of times I've cried, torn my hair out, is immeasurable. I and colleagues have gone above and beyond to support the families, genuinely care about them, but unfortunately the outcome has been, as I've said in title, it's a continiation of the cycle of being brought up within a small community and low expectations.

So many gorgeous kids (supported throughout their young lives until they leave school) who tell you their dreams of what they want to to achieve in life, we do everything we can to enable it and some have indeed broken out of the circle but unfortunately the reality has been...

Parents who live lifestyles of no bedtime routine, tell their kids not to come back before ...pm, sleep in and don't get them out of bed ready and fed for school and as for weekends, pub and take back a new bloke

Parents who have issues themselves and project them onto DC. The kids soon realise they can stay off school for feigning illness and would actually be a comfort to Mum

The parents who just cba and say shall we just still in bed?

Of course there are so many other mitigating factors but these are the 3 main experiences we've dealt with. Unfortunately it really does come down to poor parenting and no matter what interventions we do to encourage attendance, only a minority are genuine.

So the cycle...DC think education isn't important, parents are hopeless role models and can often be aggressive to teachers, a deflection of blame.

Then oh DD gets pregnant at age 15, DS has been reprimanded by the police for scooting around in a balaclava. Then pure hostility when we try to continue to talk to them and what could be done to help.

Basically it's just such a shame, these sweet young kids who say they want to be ... become so influenced by their homelife, a need to fit in with their family and peers from the same estate, that they ignore the support we give them, don't turn up to appointments etc.

For the genuine cases, DC with SEN, the effort to try and ensure they are in best place is utmost and it's heartbreaking there aren't enough of them. Yes, we do know genuine cases and not just so many parents striving for a diagnosis because they feed DC a terrible diet and let them stay up late so are tired and irritable at school.

Expecting some backlash, whatever anyone says I can reason with.

Making employers pay a minimum wage that doesn’t require topping up with state benefits.

Making healthcare (physical and mental) accessible and functional.

Making education flexible and fit for purpose by enabling those with different skills to pursue the route most suitable for them.

Those 3 things would reduce the benefit bill and turn things around in a generation.

People like you who are fully entitled to and need those benefits always argue that everyone in receipt of those benefits is the same. It isn't true.

OP i agree with you and see it in my job all the time. People also complaining their kids have behavioural issues etc when of course they do cause they sit in front of screens, no outdoor play, awful diet, no routine and the parents are lazy until its time to play the system

I highly recommend you read Poor by Katriona O’Sullivan. She lived a life you described and then got herself a PhD and is now an academic. I think her day to day existence back then will really shock your ability to judge these behaviours so casually.

One of the points she has consistently made is that it is the absence of opportunity that really commits people to poverty.

There is a lot of insights you are really missing.

*there are

I think getting your children out of bed and ready for school on time isnt really linked to money and social status.

Same with bringing random men home on a Saturday night after a long afternoon in Wetherspoons.

I agree with just about everything the OP says.

Poor parenting and zero effort/selfishness is a massive problem. Used to be same in victorian times but persistently grim people and their children, once convicted, we're sent to Australia. Out of sight out of mind. Made the lives of people in the UK a lot easier though with less crime.

It's not anyone's business. Yes in my view it is. It's shaming women.

One other thought as I read through the posts was the somewhat tongue in cheek suggestion to send the poor to the colonies.

What is really interesting is that while Australia obviously created its own horrific system of apartheid which I’m not lauding but the very people who were written off on this side of the world who were sent there went on to build a thriving first world country in Australia.

That must tell some version of its own story.

Sorry but I'll say this once more. I grew up in a single parent family. Our Saturdays didn't consist of my mum bringing random men home from the pub on a Saturday. I used to work pub doors on a Saturday night. Wetherspoons - for a year. The people I saw were in established groups of friends. What I didn't see was women going off with men they didn't know.

That's not what my post said if you read it back

It’s not really the benefits that are the main issue it’s learnt behaviour surely. Families that believe what you describe is the norm and in their family it is. You can’t tell people what to do with their lives because they don’t have to listen.. Perhaps it’s lack of education or social deprivation. The benefit system is generous compared to some countries but it also makes it difficult when you are in the middle ground and want to retrain and better yourself. There needs to be better incentives to allow people to have aims through work and training in later life not just while young. Not all people who receive benefits are behaving as you describe.

Failing to understand what logic was applied?

Also, what make you so sure none of the above applies to me or the thief?

1. Pay a living wage, make work worthwhile.

2. Make public transport dirt cheap so going to work doesn’t cost a fortune.

3. Stop underpaying young people - make it really attractive to start working early.

Poor is an excellent book. She is also (rightly) extremely critical of the social workers who failed her while she was growing up - she is clear that their judgmental attitudes and their willingness to write her family off had a terrible impact on her. The chapter where her primary school teacher has to teach her to wash and bring her clean knickers nearly brought me to tears.

I'm poor. I'm on benefits. I don't spend my Saturdays taking random men home from the pub. But I would if I were a single parent. That's what some people are saying yes?

The one girl that I speak to regularly who is a single parent. Three grown up kids and one 6 year old - spends most of her time studying. She's doing an Open University degree.

We don't all live the life that some people are describing on this thread.

I have a lot of ideas, but none that can be implemented without massive wealth distribution. I don't know how to achieve that. I do think we're in end-stage capitalism though and heading for the tipping point at which a critical mass of people can't afford to live. I don't know what will or should happen next, but its sort of inevitable that a certain point the concentration of wealth becomes unworkable.

Not RTFT sorry. Lack of ambition in parents? I’m aware of a bloke who delivers drugs. No school for the kids. I suppose he didn’t go so he doesn’t see the importance of them going. Assume the young son will follow in his footsteps. He’s already wearing the cross body man bag.

It is a cycle. It’s all about home life.

Likewise I know plenty of middle class kids who aren’t particularly bright, not particularly talented, not particularly ambitious. But it’s just a given that they will be given lessons to become reasonably proficient in an instrument, learn to ski and play tennis, get solid results at school, choose a good career path, go to uni, be funded through uni so they don’t need to work, or work very few hours.

And surprise surprise they end up financially comfortable and doing the same for their kids.

Obviously there are outliers and it doesn’t always go to plan, but generally it does. There’s none of the fear or uncertainty that those who are trying to break out the cycle have.

I know of a couple who came from a solidly working class background, all manual jobs. Broke out of that cycle by going to college, got good jobs, moved across the county to get their kids into a grammar, gave them good experiences etc.

But I guess they were still lacking the inbuilt cultural capital of families that come from money. One of the kids did try his best, went to uni etc but floundered a bit as despite their best intentions the parents couldn’t advise on that world. The other two kids dropped out of school and then college and just generally felt lost in the world they tried to enter.

The value of education and ideas. That makes all the difference.

Cognitive ability is not the best predictor of outcome at all, I don’t know where you e got that from. All the cognitive abilities in the world did not and could not help most of the Roman slave population. Pre existing capital is the defining feature of our civilization once again and it has been for quite some time, it’s been well known for some time too. Professions are passed down. The other big predictor of outcome is sex. Men do far better economically no matter that women were doing better academically.

Model aspiration and raise them to be self-disciplined. Teach them that nothing will be given to them for free.
There are plenty of examples of socially mobile families around me. It takes two or three generations of consistent effort. But aspiration and self discipline are key. Intelligence is pretty non-negotiable too.

I want to say something clever and persuasive, I really do. But decades of this BS has worn me down.
lots of people are on ‘benefits’ because they can’t earn enough not to be.
so the generations of benefits claimants tripe us more true than it used to be because so many working families have to claim UC
and if we are pulling ‘ as someone who works…’
I can tell you that claiming disability benefits is not simple as I do it for kids who need 24 hr care and even they have to wait months and go to appeal.
if rents were not so high
if wages were not so low
if we had secure long term contacts instead of the gig economy so beloved of those who are only working till they’ve finished fecking about and get a proper job in dads firm
if there was proper support for disabled families
the welfare bill would go down.

how many threads do we see on MN with enormous sympathy for someone struggling to survive in 100k yet so many are convinced that Shannon is living it large with her kids mason and Neavah on the riches she gets from UC ?

why can’t the middle classes be happy with what they have? Why the jealousy of those with less.

there will always be the feckless , in every walk of life. We shouldn’t make everyone suffer because of stereotypes fuelled by misinformation and resentment

Could you work to set an example? Most things I do around my dd are to model a life that she would enjoy living more. I don't want her to become me so I make efforts to show her a different way even if it involves some major sacrifices.
The way I see it is if you think your life is amazing, then encouraging your child to emulate it is great. If you don't, then you need to set an example.
Kids don't ask to be born so it's on us to make sure they have happy lives whatever sacrifices that entails.

@DuskOPorter

I agree. I am a similar age to Katriona. Without meaning to be too outing we grew up in the same neighbourhood in Coventry.

I was lucky enough to attend her Q and A before the show “poor” at the Belgrade Theatre.

I am from a very, very long line of poverty. My mum trained as a mental health nurse and discussed the lack of care records and opportunities with Katriona herself (as both in the care system in this local authority). There is intelligence and ambition in my family. I was able to complete my OU degree with my eyes shut tbh even whilst raising kids. I left school with no GCSEs though. I am now on UC.

It won’t be forever, but it will most certainly be for the time being whilst I am £500 up. Not really sure what I’m trying to articulate but there’s a real “gap”. Theres no point in me working unless I can get to the £40k plus bracket. Even then, I’m only marginally better of financially but know of course long term it’s much better to be in employment.

Not sure what the answers are. I look at my eldest lad who will no doubt achieve fantastic GCSE results. He has no inheritance or money coming his way and is going to have to work exceptionally hard to even just remotely “get somewhere”. He sees a lot of poverty around him. Half a mile down the road last week two people were shot. Those sorts of surroundings clip young people’s wings because they’re just not exposed to affluence around them. Social mobility is not as easy as some people make out.

The first thing you need in order to “break the cycle” as child in a disadvantaged community is to be smart.
Unfortunately, it’s not something you have any control over, but it’s true.
If you are smart and you have adequate/ good supports at home, you have a really good chance (but it’s likely your parents that your parents are fairly smart. They probably work, aren’t addicted, don’t have mh problems etc.)
If you are smart but with little to no support at home, it’s a very different story but the plus side is that teachers might notice you.
They give you books you might enjoy, think of you when there’s a special program running, give you pep talks etc.
None of this helps the fact that at home you are likely being exposed to drink/ drug problems, domestic violence, possibly physical, sexual or emotional abuse.
Contrary to popular opinion, disadvantaged people are actually disadvantaged. Most of them stress about money all the time. It causes arguments and tension. They may get the financial support they are relying on in the end, but they don’t know that for sure and this causes massive anxiety.
Meanwhile, the teacher that’s giving you so much encouragement begins to get a little bit frustrated
that her encouragement isn’t paying off. Especially once you’re a teenager.
What you really needed was early intervention, for your mum - smart, ready to go to college to be a teacher but then got pregnant at seventeen. Overwhelmed, suffering from bipolar that wouldn’t be diagnosed until she was in her fifties, and living with an alcoholic just as his dad was,
traumatised from his own childhood living in real poverty. Tenements, no shoes, no birthday or Christmas presents, one meal a day, fleas and lice and actually malnutrition.
Or for yourself, hiding the fact that you’re actually suffering from depression.
You end up in system at fifteen- much too late.
Drop out of school early having been told over and over that you’re “wasting your potential” that you have a chance and you’re blowing it.
Go to alternative adult education and it’s the same thing. Teachers tell you you’re intelligent, amazing, great potential. Then get frustrated and disappointed in you when your attendance drops off. You’re exhausted. On antidepressants. Living in a shitty bedsit because it was intolerable living at home. You actually have dyslexia but won’t find out til you’re forty so there’s that too.
Your self esteem is non existent now and once you finished the course, nobody will employ you anyway. Reluctantly you go for the dole because that’s what you’re told to do. Turns out you qualify for disability, even better because you won’t have to look for work. You fall deeper into depression though. The pills seem to make it worse.

Eventually you get hospitalised. Get support, get better, end up on the same training course. The exact same one. Ten years later. Some of the same teachers too. Oh they say you again. What have you done with yourself in the last ten years? Nothing. They’re not as encouraging because you’re not really young anymore.
But this time….nope, same again. You get top marks in all exams despite poor attendance and then can’t get a job. It’s even worse because now you have to apply online and they filter you out.
Turns out being smart isn’t really an advantage after all.
Now there’s one thing that will determine how things go, for you and future dc. Who you marry.
If you marry a deadbeat, you’re sunk. Game over.
Marry someone with a good job, good prospects, then you’ve got a chance.
Not a chance the way the teachers and social workers meant (university, career, all that) but a chance at owning your own home, in a better part of the same community and your kids have a better shot (but no guarantees).
Once they’re in school, maybe you can retrain…but no one will employ you now, no chance.
Maybe in another few generations my family won’t need any benefits or any of that.