Does this sound like neurodivergence or a sensitive temperament?

[kvazzy]

Hi everyone,

Posting on AIBU for traffic.

I’m trying to make sense of my DD’s profile and would really appreciate balanced perspectives, especially from parents of neurodivergent children or people who know this area well.

My DD has just turned 5 and is in Reception. Overall she is doing well. School are happy with her progress, she is developing well academically and teachers say she is on track. She also does well in structured activities such as tennis, ballet and singing. Teachers/coaches generally give positive feedback. She has a lot of energy, but can also concentrate.

What makes me wonder about neurodivergence:

• She is very emotionally intense and can get very upset over things that may seem small.
• She finds losing, being second, or another child being “first” very hard. For example, if another child overtakes her on a bike or runs ahead of her, she can become very upset and say she doesn’t want to be friends with that child anymore, although this does not last.
• She can take refusal very personally. If another child doesn’t want to play her game or do something together, she can experience it almost as rejection of the whole friendship.
• She can be quite controlling in play. She loves children and wants to play, but sometimes wants very intense, close interaction and struggles when the other child wants space or wants to do things differently.
• She has some sensory sensitivities: hair brushing, hair washing, nail cutting. We have to put a cartoon on while doing all these things.
• She can be perfectionistic. She has said things like “I am not good enough” and can become very upset if her writing or numbers don’t look right.
• She is very sensitive to criticism or correction and can become upset if we point out mistakes.
• She can resist everyday demands such as dressing, handwashing and stopping play. We often have to make these tasks playful or interesting for her.
• She can be very shy around other people at first, especially adults.

What makes me less sure it is neurodivergence:

• She is very socially motivated and has always loved being around children.
• She has rich imaginative play and creates lots of different scenarios and games.
• Her play is flexible in the sense that she invents new games all the time, rather than repeating one rigid script.
• She generally does well at school and in structured classes.
• She can follow instructions and wait her turn in after-school clubs.
• She has good language and can often explain her feelings afterwards. For example, after one big upset with friends and craft materials, she later told me she was scared the other children would take her things without asking.
• She usually recovers after meltdowns and can go back to playing happily.
• She seems very empathic and relationship-focused, sometimes almost too much so.

I suppose what confuses me is that she is not withdrawn or socially uninterested at all. If anything, she is intensely social, very imaginative, bright, energetic and sensitive. But she struggles a lot with rejection, losing, sharing control, and feeling that her things or her place in the group are at risk.

Does this sound more like possible neurodivergence, or more like a highly sensitive / intense / strong-willed child who needs support with emotional regulation and social flexibility?

all completely normal- I am surprised you think these things indicate anything more.

I would hope that 'gentle parenting' still means you are setting stern boundaries and not having big conversations about behaviour. 5 year olds need boundaries and need to know that you will stick to those boundaries. Don't over discuss or rationalise.

all of this is within range of 'normal' emotions and personalities. Please stop.

everything on her list can also be completely normal.

Hi @Lougle thank you for taking time to write all the signs in such detail, appreciate it!

There is a couple of things that are similar to your DD3 in terms of perfectionism (she also can refuse to read some more complex words as she hates being wrong). She also likes being busy all the time - chatting, playing, laughing - she is quite energetic. What's good is that she is normally getting the context, i.e. knows "the office" = bad, I have not noticed her misreading such things majorly. She is also quite ok ( and often excited) about a change (school trips, non-uniform days, etc).

Anyway, thanks you so much for describing all the signs. It's good to be aware of them.

We are having strict boundaries but mostly about major things - i.e. DD can't harm or offend anyone or put anyone or herself in a dangerous situation. Regarding many other things, we are quite relaxed - she eats when she wants to (we don't force or persuade), she can take anything from the fridge, she can wear anything she wants (on non-school days), we don't force warm clothes unless she wants to... We talk a lot about things and yes sometimes we are over explaining things. But I can't help it as I've always seen her as an equal to me person. I would not say "no" without explaining it to a friend so I treat her the same way.

This is likely to explain a lot. In the school setting, she will be expected to be part of the group. She'll be expected to do things because a person in authority has instructed her to. She won't be able to eat/drink/wee whenever she wants to.

She's having to accommodate the wishes of other people and bend to their will, when the reality is that she pretty much runs things at home as long as she's nice about it.

It must be very confusing for her, don't you think?

A good way to raise it may be describing the behaviour and asking if the teacher has seen it, to call a little reflection. If you still get nowhere ask how mistakes are dealt with in class and how she would recommend you encourage a growth mindset at home.

Your DD pretty much has the run of the home and now she has to accommodate other peoples wants and needs and expectations and she has no idea how to.
She doesn’t sound ND -84%of this thread has agreed she does not sound ND yet you are still pushing for appointments with her teachers, even though her teachers have said she is fine, just leave her alone and maybe set a few more rules in the home to help her prepare for rules outside the home, like meal times and not snacking whenever she wants, weather appropriate clothes and sometimes a no is just a no and other people (teachers/friends) may not have the time (nor the capability being 5yo friend)to explain why they have said no.

Is energetic, enjoys laughing and looks forward to school trips.... Never known a five year old like that.

Not sure how telling somebody ‘please stop’ is supposed to help. You sound irritated by the conversation. The OP has asked for help. I am knowledgeable and have offered support. She could now go and ask for a professional assessment and they might say she is neurotypical but without asking a professional she is never going to know the answer. My DC2 struggled all through secondary school due to undiagnosed ADHD. I have struggled all through my whole life due to undiagnosed ADHD. Everyone thought we were normal too .

I think a curse of modern parenting is that for all the involvement and time we spend with our kids compared to previous generations (I cannot imagine my parents EVER angsting like this about me) we have this collective mindset that any discomfort for a child is bad. Yet it’s the discomfort of waiting for a snack, losing to a friend etc that build patience, resilience and the ability to tolerate uncomfortable emotions.

While I will reserve the full TED Talk for another time, this is how kids learn. We had to make ‘be able to lose graciously and not have a tantrum’ a whole project in our house because both DC struggled with it. It’s our responsibility as parents to create environments that develop these skills in our kids, and I think we (including me) now naturally default to making their lives as comfortable as possible meaning they aren’t learned as ‘naturally’ as in the past.

Being an only child would be absolutely key here, especially if the approach you take is that she dictates the rhythm of household life AND she’s strong-willed (I have one of these).

Wishing you luck with your daughter.

This 100%!

Hi everyone, really appreciate your input. Thank you for taking time to write your thoughts and let me see the situation from different angles!

Good Luck Kvazzy. I hope all goes well with the chat with DD's teacher and that you are reassured. You have had a variety of responses here and hopefully that will have given you some insights. Your DD sounds lovely!

I think a curse of modern parenting is that for all the involvement and time we spend with our kids compared to previous generations (I cannot imagine my parents EVER angsting like this about me) we have this collective mindset that any discomfort for a child is bad. Yet it’s the discomfort of waiting for a snack, losing to a friend etc that build patience, resilience and the ability to tolerate uncomfortable emotions.

While I will reserve the full TED Talk for another time, this is how kids learn.

This from a PP - a really good thing to think about.
I often think that when you see your DC at home, as the only child in their safe home, most interactions are resolved in patterns, and everyone gets a bit used to those patterns. In other environments, it can be a very different story, and learning how to scale up to handling more people and their different styles is not something that will come as quickly as would happen at home. It all needs practice. Even with adjustments, that are appropriate if ND is in the mix, these don't take all of the issues away and some of the practice is still worthwhile and useful to persist with.

I have an only DC (now teen) who has several things for which adjustments would be very helpful. Some have been put in place but this is the probable limit of what their school will offer. Anxiety and control have been very dominant and this can present situations where DC can take a lead role in a show, love the spotlight and love the attention, but be paralysed by also having to get on and rub along in a dressing room of 6 people. Practicing early, and (to an extent) accepting what comes much less easily, is rarely wasted.

Speaking as an early years teacher, nothing you've said screams ND. She sounds perfectly within the bracket of "normal 5yo girl". Lots of kids can't abide losing; races, games, anything. Just continue to model it to her, showing her losing with good grace. Proactively teach her what to say when she wins AND when she loses.
As for the friendship thing... At 5, kids are still figuring out how friendships work, and learning that other people have different wants and needs to themselves. It's a complex thing, and can often be very intense and dramatic at this age. It will calm down with age and maturity.
Plenty of kids don't like hair washing/brushing/nails being cut. Can she articulate what it is she doesn't like about it? Does the water get in her eyes? That can be actively painful for some people. She could hold a towel over her face? Would she rather brush her own hair? Or chose a different style of brush? Nails are softer and easier to cut after a bath. There's less of the sound and the "jolt" when they're soft.

She just sounds like a normal 5 year old to me.

She's only little, she hasn't had long to figure out the social niceties of playing with children who might have other focuses.

Maybe she is neurodivergent, but honestly, not everything needs to be pathologised.

I’ve just been to see my friend, who is a year 3 teacher. We were talking about neurodiversity. She said that she is perfectly placed to identify the kids with potential ND. So I would do a watchful wait if I were you, as things may develop, or they may just even themselves out, especially as your dd’s behaviours could easily be NT.

Teachers absolutely are not well placed to spot ND in girls with catastrophic results further down the line. This is well known.

This is almost certainly outing but we’ve been going through this with DD for years.

Teachers insist she must be NT.

Her brother has an ADHD diagnosis, her mother has an ADHD diagnosis. Father almost certainly has something ND going on.

It absolutely gives me the rage. So apparently my son’s ND, but my daughter’s just difficult, emotional, a pain in the arse?

Mmm...DD2 is 18, described by professionals as 'complex', is in specialist education and as yet there is no provision identified that will meet her (assessed, documented) needs next year. Her teachers in years R-4 missed her ASD, even though I was telling them that she presented differently at home. Her year 2 teacher actually gasped when I showed her a covertly recorded video of her reaction to practicing a song at home where I had found a YouTube video but it was slightly different to the school version.

Her year 5 teacher was the SENCO, and realised I was telling the truth when she didn't respond to intervention as expected.

By year 7 she was diagnosed with ASD

In year 10, when she fell apart, the SENCO directly refused her year head's request to help me apply for an EHCP, saying she didn't meet the criteria, even though by that point she was on a vastly reduced timetable and even that was failing. Despite her being intelligent but getting a grade 1 English mock result because she couldn't understand the teacher's way of teaching and couldn't ask for help. Long story short, I applied myself and after the assessments, the LA decided she has complex needs and put her in an independent special school.

DH worked with her ex head teacher from years 3-6, and even though they had supported her ASD assessment, she said she would never have guessed that DD2 would have needed specialist education.

Most teachers get about one half day of teaching on SEN. That's all SEN. Unless a kid sticks out like a sore thumb, they'll generally not notice ND traits until they cause the teacher a problem.

I see by these responses, I wasn’t clear at all. I wasn’t talking about teachers in general. I was talking about my friend, who is good at spotting this stuff, even with less obvious kids. I am not saying she picks up everything and everyone. But she does actively want to identify the less obvious kids.

And the reason as to why I was saying about her, is because she told me that a lot of kids aren’t picked up in KS1, or if something is potentially identified, it will be more easily brushed off by variances of behaviour at that age by definition of being little. But that by the start of KS2, any differences can less easily be ignored. And this is why she has chosen to be a year 3 teacher, because she feels any concerns she may have will be taken more seriously with this age group. And starting the process at this stage is just about it time to give the child a good chance of getting support in place by the start of secondary.

As an aside, she wasn’t a teacher when dd was little, but she took me to one side and persuaded me to get private sessions with a child psychologist she knew when dd was in year 1. She could see that things really weren’t right. The CP was helpful to resolving some of dd’s issues, but she didn’t pick up on any SEN, even thought dd had a range of issues back then, including sensor ones. Because I asked her and was told no. She was wrong. Very wrong.

But your friend being very much in the minority is of no use to the OP.

The fact is nobody is going to come and help the OPs dd should things escalate further down the line. Like most girls with ND if she is to get what she needs it will be left to her parents( often the mother) to fight and advocate for her whilst being castigated and dismissed.

And that’s why I was saying to wait a while as op will hopefully be taken more seriously further down the line, because at 5 what op is saying could be explained away. Less so in a couple of years - as I said in my above comment, differences can be less easily ignored. I know and I mean I know exactly what it feels like not to be taken seriously. My dd is 17. We are on a big old journey with it all right now.