To think the main Mumsnet demographic are out of touch politically

[Veiledveritas]

Reform.are smashing the polls yet any Reform voter is despised and ridiculed on here.

Am I to take from that exchange that you can't elaborate? Not a problem. No need to further reply. Enjoy your day.

I explained my point, you talked about disagreeing with donuts.

Its like a sixth form common room in here sometimes. 🙄

What makes you think that? You don’t know why people voted for Brexit. Council elections have frequently been protest votes against unpopular governments which often aren’t reproduced in a GE.

Green volunteers on the campaign trail were surrounded by boxes of leaflets draped in the Palestinian flag. They focused on Gaza as an issue, and the party actively highlighted comments by Starmer that had previously inflamed tensions between Labour and Muslim supporters. Leaflets were handed out to worshippers at the mosque at prayer times.

How UK Greens weaponized Farage’s populist playbook

Did Morgan McSweeney go green 😲😲😲? That guy at the back!

Possibly because these are the people who illegal immigration affects the most.

I live and work in London and am in the minority. To the point, out of 15 people working that day I might be the only UK born person employed that day. I know this because the day always starts with a discussion about where everyone is from.

What would you call people who vote for a fascist party that lauds the Second World War? You know, the war fought against fascism?

I know a lot of posh people in real life! Because of some of the Labour policies (farmer, private school VAT, landlord stuff), there are some rich posh highly educated people now voting Reform. So stop underestimating and smell the bloody music! These people see Reform as a way back to control for the Tories. It is so naive to assume it is just poor uneducated people on benefits. The same happened with the Brexit vote and look what mess that got us into!

The only way forward for Labour is to take the centre stage completely, get rid of all the bullshit left policies they have implemented to please their own backbenchers who are still gunning for Sir Keir anyway. If the man had some muscle he would just lead and ignore them all. If Wes Streeting were PM he would just roll all over them and just do what is right for the country, regardless of what anyone in his own party thinks.

Backbenchers do represent electorate though. In theory anyway.

You seem to be in favour of a more authoritarian dictator direction ?

Interesting. I imagine in a workplace this varies a lot by sector. I work in London and all my colleagues are British born, but if I was in hospitality or healthcare or fashion or tech this would be less likely.

I was interested in the town comment as it comprises a much bigger group of people.

“You seem to be in favour of a more authoritarian dictator direction ?”

@RedTagAlan - haha, definitely not. Are you implying Wes Streeting would be a dictator now?

What does British born even mean? Does it mean your mum pushed you out in an NHS hospital, to be properly British? Has it got anything to do with skin colour or not?

I was born abroad to British parents who were diplomats. Does that count or not?

What is a proper Brit? Is it someone who contributes cash into the system?

Look lots of different people have a different idea of what amounts to good enough to be properly British. It is clearly largely bullshit anyway.

No. Just that backbenchers do have a role.

Personally, given all the faults with our parliamentary first past the post system, I would put backbenchers in the pro side of any pro/con list.

According to the Restore party and how they said they would classify what Brit is, the King would not qualify. His dad was foreign.

So there is that.

I am very wary of people trying to erase aspects of people's identities. Being British is meaningful. If you have ever been to a country with different values and origins then you can palpably feel it. We shouldn't be ashamed of this or try to minimise it because it feels racist. It isn't!

By the same token we should respect other people's national identities. I wouldn't dare to accuse their connection to their national identity as being largely bullshit.

Incidentally, you can be born in London as a British citizen but lose your citizenship and become stateless (see Shamima Begum). That was pre Reform. So seems the right to acquire even in theory another nationality by descent was enough for the English highest courts to hold that to be lawful.
So arguably anyone with a parent or grandparent and some theoretical rights by descent who has committed [terrorism] (that being a very high test for now) is not 100 per cent a British citizen for life. That is the law as it currently stands.

“I am very wary of people trying to erase aspects of people's identities. Being British is meaningful. If you have ever been to a country with different values and origins then you can palpably feel it. We shouldn't be ashamed of this or try to minimise it because it feels racist. It isn't!
By the same token we should respect other people's national identities. I wouldn't dare to accuse their connection to their national identity as being largely bullshit.”

@Itchthescratch - what constitutes “British” is subjective. It is also regional and generational.
The way my kids born in London feel today is far more a question of where and how they grew up and in what time period. As they grow up in a multicultural City that is what British means to them. British also means Brexit to them, Bojo on TV during Covid blustering all over, getting the book from the Queen at primary etc. Their experience of life in Britain during the time period and more specifically London, England is what means to be British to them. It includes being in a state primary with over 50% of children from many different countries.

Of course what it means to be anything changes over time and will differ based on lived experience. I am a woman and see this as a cure part of my identity. This is a fundamentally different experience to being a woman a hundred years ago or being a woman in a different country or culture. If doesn't take away from the fact that being a woman is an important part of my identity.

Equally being British is an important part of my identity. I have been shaped by the values and traditions of this country. My outlook and perspectives are hugely influenced by this. For example, I believe in equality as most Brits do. We have laws that support this and whilst we certainly aren't perfect, there is a pretty broad consensus for example that women and men should be treated equally (83% of people agree). This is not an outlook shared by other countries. We are also one of the most tolerant countries when it comes to religion. Again many countries and cultures do not tolerate religious diversity. These kinds of values are what makes us British and they are important. If we dilute them too much then we are at real risk of erasing what many of us hold most dear.

Quote :

"We shouldn't be ashamed of this or try to minimise it because it feels racist. It isn't!"

Do you apply this universally ? The PRC for example. Part of their national identity, according to the CPC, is that Japan is bad. Because the Party do not think the Japanese rulers are apologetic for WW2.

Then there is Germany. I have no issue if a German feels shame for what happened. Even though it was not to do with them. But if a German was celebrating the Third Reich, what then ?

If I, as a Brit feel a shame for what Britain done in the past, then is that not up to me ? Especially if one considers the advantages I had because of generational exploitation of other nations ?

You can feel however you want, but you certainly don't get to tell me that I should feel shame or anything else about being British. Like almost every country, we have done things on the right and wrong side of history. We have invaded and been invaded. We have fought courageously against evil but committed evil. I suspect very few people alive today have committed the sins that you feel ashamed of. The world is complex and a country's identity can't be boiled down to a moment or even moments in history (Third Reich) or prolonged grudges. Identity transcends this. It's about values and attitudes. If you go to a fundamentally different country then you realise this.

I am posting from a different country. And trust me, I am in a country where it might not be a good idea to go about celebrating how great Britishness is.

And I am Scottish. And if I was sat in a Scottish pub and a group of English came in, I would not start singing "Flower of Scotland". Because that could be considered rude. By the same token, although Scotland and England are in Brittain, it might be considered rude if the aforementioned English in the aforementioned pub started boasting about Edward Longshanks.

By all means, lets party and celebrate things. But some things are better mentioned with a " sorry" and a handshake.

And don't ask me to sing the 6th verse of the Brit national anthem.

I've always advocated that child care costs and commuting costs should be allowable deductions for income tax/NIC on wages.

As it stands, people are paying tax/NIC on a portion of wages that goes straight out in such costs, i.e. costs that allow them to work.

"Costs of working", in my opinion, should at least be tax/nic deductable.

At the moment, if, say, your working costs are £10k per year, it equates to £14k of your gross salary because the tax/nic is around £4k If childcare and commuting was deductible, the £10k would equate to £10k of gross salary

(All ignoring other deductions such as workplace pensions, student loans etc which of course make things worse when childcare and commuting costs aren't allowable).

Some other countries already allow commuting costs and/or childcare costs as deductible expenses against wages.

We're way behind in the UK with our tax system.

Of course we shouldn't antagonise each other. That goes without saying hopefully. You can be proud of your identity without looking to rub it in people's faces.

I also wouldn't expect a German to apologise to me for the two world wars. Or an Italian to apologise for invading Britain and enslaving some Brits. I understand that this isn't really relevant to who they are today or their current national identities.

It's like condemning a whole family because they had a bad egg in the family tree. This doesn't mean their whole identity as a family is shaped by this. Identifies run deeper and are more values based.