Paramedics made my father go to hospital

[wecangoupupup]

My father has atrial fibrillation. He has had this for years.

He has been told multiple times what to do in the case of an episode of AF. Today, he had one while I was visiting. It took a long time to pass, so in line with his consultant’s plan my mother called 999, after the usual medications had been given at home.

In the time it took for the paramedics to arrive, the attack passed and when they did arrive, it had been nearly an hour since it had ended.

They still made him go to hospital as they “couldn’t rule out a heart attack”, despite my father insisting that he knows his body, knows what an AF episode feels like and knows when it has passed. All he wanted was to go to bed and sleep off the effects of the beta blockers he had taken.

They still essentially made him go to hospital, saying that they would make him sign forms if he didn’t which showed he had refused medical advice. I was present and the paramedics essentially made it sound as though he would be at the back of the queue if it returned and he needed an ambulance again.

Fast forward 10 hours and he’s still in hospital, no doctors available to read his ECG or his blood test results, and he’s been sleeping in a hard plastic chair. AIBU to think this is ridiculous? Paramedics really shouldn’t be encouraging patients to attend hospital when it’s not necessary.

YANBU. If they'd got him straight into a bed and hooked up to a monitor then it would make sense, but he'd be better off at home than waiting on a chair for many hours.

And there are lots of times paramedics come and check people out and don't take them to hospital. Most of them are great and usually pretty pragmatic about whether hospital is required and how long the wait will be.

I don’t think this post by OP can be real as no one could be that stupid.

It’s people like the OP that make me desperately want to leave the NHS.

I’m burnt out, as are my colleagues.

Firstly, I’m sorry your dad has been unwell, and glad he’s home and comfortable now.
However, I have to admit I’m somewhat confused about what you’re so unhappy about.
Your mum called for an ambulance, on the advice of your dad’s surgeon. That ambulance attended, and checked your dad over. The paramedics advised he went to hospital, and although your dad could have refused, and signed the paperwork, he ended up going in.
Yes, it sounds like he had a long wait, and you were concerned about the lack of attention; but there was thankfully nothing seriously wrong. Urgent care/A&E/similar units all operate on a system of see the illest patients first - so, it’s often a blessing in disguise not to have to be seen the minute you arrive in hospital. It is a pain, and exhausting to wait, but he was fully checked out, and discharged. Again, he could have signed the paperwork to leave against medical advice at any point. He chose not to do that.

So, in short, he received the medical attention requested - and chose not to discharge himself at any point in the process. I’m slightly confused (actually rather baffled) as to what’s being complained about here, other than the paramedics being rather more forceful than they might have been….
Its pretty galling to know you’re so unhappy with what seems to have been a pretty thorough check up for him, with the only real ‘cost’ to him being a few hours of his time. 🤷🏼‍♀️

And OP expects us to believe that if her DF did need to be treated in hospital, but had discharged himself and ended up having a heart attack that she’d not have made a complaint.

Im sure the NHS have plenty of resources to deal with this nonsense! 🤦‍♀️

I can see why the OP is frustrated. I have experienced NHS care of the elderly close up and it was an abomination.

My mum had dementia and would have falls as well as some seizures. She was admitted to hospital a few times and the care was always substandard, she was ignored, forgotten about, sniggered at and basically shown a complete lack of dignity and respect.

During her last year, when the seizures started, the care home called the ambulance and they would always want to take her in to hospital, where she once spent 14 hours outside in the ambulance before she could go in. Once inside, they would generally leave her for hours again before doing some checks and sending her back. In the end, I got the GP onside and it was agreed that she would not go to hospital unless it was for something like a broken bone. The care at hospital was always less than the care from the care home and the people who loved her. Refusing a hospital admission should be a choice that is respected, especially with the elderly.

The paramedics were always lovely I should add.

This does depend on the country, I feel. I have left against medical care in two countries (chronic condition; nothing hospital can do but when I had an attack, they’d always want me to stay overnight to be observed). In one place, I walked right out and I assume they just checked the box for “patient didn’t sign.” In another, they called hospital security and made it clear that I needed to wait and sign the paperwork saying I was leaving, or security would “assist” me with waiting that long. I was properly a bit terrified as I wasn’t being belligerent in any way and hospital security had actual guns; but yes, security was there to physically stop me from just walking out, because I guess in that country, the hospital’s duty of care could have made them legally liable if I just walked out and it was in a very litigious society.

Agree, you sound a nightmare
You shouldn't have phoned the ambulance
Why didn't you drive him to the hospital yourself?

Glad to hear that her ridiculous complaint will go nowhere as most people will understand she doesn’t have a leg to stand on.
They will ask the paramedics who will confirm the policy they have to follow and followed it.
I suspect she is mostly salty about the ten hour wait at the hospital.
Well boo fucking hoo, every other fucker had to deal with the bad waiting times, her family are not special and don’t get priority, if you want that go private.
Fancy calling for a fucking ambulance when it wasn’t necessary when desperately ill people will have been delayed because of the families selfishness.

I work for an ambulance trust, there is no way that paramedics said that another ambulance wouldnt be sent if he became unwell. You have either misinterpreted what they said or are misrepresenting their words for dramatic effect. Either way your father could have refused to go to hospital, they would not have strong armed him into the back of an ambulance.

Calling this bullying and coercion is bullshit. I’m a hospital consultant, when I’m advising admission to a patient I explain exactly why I’m advising that. I also tell them straight up if there are bed pressures, so that can help inform their decision. In a clinic situation, if I’m recommending admission, I’ll phone the ward there and then to check if we have a bed. If we have 8 beds, there’s no immediacy in the decision, the patient can mull it over, chat with family etc. if we have only 1 bed, I tell them that, and let them know I cannot hold it for them whilst they make their decision. If someone else presents elsewhere in the system who accepts that bed, they’ll get it.

That’s not bullying, coercion or blackmail. It’s letting them have all the facts before they make their decision.

Exactly. The paramedics run the risk that if they don’t explain to the patient that if they stay at home and ring again the next time there may be a very, very long wait for an ambulance/one might not be available when they ring that if the OP’s dad rings and is faced with a wait of hours that they then have a complaint against them for not warning the family of a possible delay.

pRamedics are in an impossible situation. Complaints if they give Information, complaints if they don’t. Healthcare has a focus on ensuring patients can make informed decisions. And this means giving all the information. That’s not coercion.

This!

Pretty daft really

And as for people saying the paramedics need retraining - erm - no they don't. They do A LOT of training for their job already.

So make a formal complaint if you’re so intent on being unreasonable and stop bellyaching about professionals doing their job.
And next time you’ll know better than them and not bother to get help for your father.
FFS.

The poor crew couldn't win.

Scenario 1.

They obligingly pop out the patient release form. Dad signs. They go. Dad goes to sleep. Passes in sleep. You complain.

Scenario 2.

Crew explains it's your dad's right to not go to hospital and he simply needs to sign a release form. They would suggest he thinks carefully about this and at the hospital more thorough checks can be done. Also that if he changes his mind about going in/less severe pains follow and they call an ambulance again it's unlikely to fit within the higher category call that led to that attendance. Long wait. You complain.

Your father was not at any time a prisoner. He chose to not sign the form at the house or the hospital - why? Usually because he was concerned and wanted the further investigation or, dare I suggest, didn't want to take the personal responsibility had it gone wrong.

Final point - yes he was waiting at the hospital having been triarged. However if his heart spotted would you rather he be there with a buzzer sounding and a team rushing to his aid.....or be in bed at home with no doors bursting open and no-one come running.

You are being unreasonable. Very, very unreasonable.

I think you’re in the wrong here, you could easily have cancelled the ambulance

This is one of the most ridiculous, malcontent-authored posts I have ever read on here and that is saying something!

It would be noted on his records. Everything is documented.

You're right. They're pragmatic. They're qualified. They know about the pressures and long waits. They know that in some cases they will be sat for hours at A&E waiting to hand over their patient, meaning that they can't respond to other calls to people who need them. Makes you think that perhaps they genuinely felt that the OPs father should be seen at the hospital doesn't it?

We are questioning because OP has changed their story three times.. we can’t go by what OP says as it’s inconsistent at best

I hear you op. This exact problem has happened to me, and more than once. Told to ring 999 if AF doesnt resolve. It resolved on its own. Paramedics say you have to go in, left in A and E all night , no action after immediate triage. Sent to the ‘day case acute medical’ waiting room ( can’t remember what it’s called) in the morning. Wait around all day, no food, drink. Sent home. ( still in my pyjamas) . No action taken. Lot of fuss for nothing. Then one day, as with me, they will decide to downgrade your problem, you go to A and E with AF and they will say they won’t cardiovert, if your AF doesnt resolve on its own, just live with it. Dont go back to A and E unless you have strong symptoms. One day after 16 years of cardioversions, they just sent me home. I never went back to sinus rhythm and just live with it now. But I had years of being traipsed around for nothing by paramedics ,nurses and doctors. In hindsight. It was a nuisance, but I was looked after. I had ecgs and echo’s and blood tests and we knew nothing more serious was going on. It is not a reason to complain. The nhs is underfunded and slow. It’s how it is. Your dad was looked after. They were being thorough.

Sorry, he sounds like a selfish idiot.

Not when their presenting complaint is chest pain we don't.

If you read OP comments you will see that her dad gets chest pain with his AF. We are always going to advise that they go to hospital for cardiac enzymes blood tests (which is what OP dad had in A&E). Obviously if the patient wants to refuse against advise basing their decision off prior information they have from a cardiologist which we won't be privy to (we don't have access to hospital notes) than that is the patients perogative, and this was offered as an option to OP dad.

@wecangoupupup I hope when you read this thread back then you accept how unreasonable you’ve been.

Your family called an ambulance and they arrived. Paramedics suggested hospital due to his condition. They offered your father the opportunity to refuse admission to hospital provided he signed a waiver. Your father made a decision due to his capacity.

Your father would have been taken to A and E, who then triaged him and transferred to the Acute Medical Unit. Standard practise. They started treatment by inserting a cannula and taking bloods - these take time to come back.

As it was day time, he sat in a chair - presumably he is ambulatory so could have walked around the room should he want.

You think that wasn’t done in a timely manner so have now put a complaint into both the Ambulance service and the hospital.

By the way, unless you have POA or are a Welfare Deputy you don’t have authority to complain on his behalf.

It's free at the point of use but everything is costed and it costs the state billions of pounds! I can assure you a trip to hospital costs taxpayers a LOT more than the £280 (?) your country charges.