Paramedics made my father go to hospital

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My father has atrial fibrillation. He has had this for years.

He has been told multiple times what to do in the case of an episode of AF. Today, he had one while I was visiting. It took a long time to pass, so in line with his consultant’s plan my mother called 999, after the usual medications had been given at home.

In the time it took for the paramedics to arrive, the attack passed and when they did arrive, it had been nearly an hour since it had ended.

They still made him go to hospital as they “couldn’t rule out a heart attack”, despite my father insisting that he knows his body, knows what an AF episode feels like and knows when it has passed. All he wanted was to go to bed and sleep off the effects of the beta blockers he had taken.

They still essentially made him go to hospital, saying that they would make him sign forms if he didn’t which showed he had refused medical advice. I was present and the paramedics essentially made it sound as though he would be at the back of the queue if it returned and he needed an ambulance again.

Fast forward 10 hours and he’s still in hospital, no doctors available to read his ECG or his blood test results, and he’s been sleeping in a hard plastic chair. AIBU to think this is ridiculous? Paramedics really shouldn’t be encouraging patients to attend hospital when it’s not necessary.

That is most definitely not the case, all paramedics know about AF. They are often the first clinicians to diagnose it from the ecg they take.

also got to say that paramedics will have said hospital is the safest option as paramedics do not take bloods so cannot 100% accurately diagnose silent heart attacks, PEs etc.

believe me when I say A&E and AMU do not keep patients waiting just for fun, we would rather the worried well go home and free up some space!

Hi OP, and I'm sure that this must all be very stressful. It also can't be helping given the posts that you're getting. I think that the inconsistencies in your posts are probably not helping.

We seem to have gone from

They still essentially made him go to hospital, saying that they would make him sign forms if he didn’t which showed he had refused medical advice. I was present and the paramedics essentially made it sound as though he would be at the back of the queue if it returned and he needed an ambulance again.

To this later post, which seems quite emphatic in stating that he would not get an ambulance again later if he needed one. Which was it?

I hope that your father is safe.

Do people think that working for the emergency services is like working in a supermarket or cafe where you have to join the back of the queue?
Every 999 call is strictly risk assessed and you cannot send anyone to the back of the queue if there need is greater than everyone else in the queue.
I took police 999 calls for long enough.
Sorry KiwiFall, I have quoted you in error here as I was agreeing with you.

You’d be the first to complain if they didn’t get him in and checked and it was Infact a heart attack. They are trained, you are not.

No problem re the misquote. To those who don’t work in healthcare just watch an ambulance reality show and you will see how frustrating it must be for the poor paramedics being called out again and again to the same people, to the hoax’s and those who don’t want to go to hospital. I get it hospitals aren’t a nice place to go but I wonder what they expect paramedics to do on the scene.

Ambulance services in the UK do not "attend every call even the time wasters and hoax calls", and haven't done for more than a decade.
All calls will be evaluated by a health care professional but Remote paramedics, nurses and advanced clinical practitioners can and do stop an ambulance being sent, advising the patient and managing their condition via other means.

Of course paramedics have heard of AF and its possible complications. They also did the correct thing in persuading your father to go to hospital, he needed an ECG and bloods at the very least.
The fact that he’d been kept waiting in hospital is awful I agree and I think that particular complaint is justified.
I do feel that you were very dismissive of the advice from the paramedics, who are highly trained and knowledgeable professionals, and they couldn’t do right for doing wrong in your view

My mistake but in this instance if the OPs dad did call again they would have attended again. She was saying they said they wouldn’t (but then changed to back of the queue).

If as you say he is so experienced with the AF episodes that then he and you should admit he is at fault and not the ambulance crew or hospital.
His calling the ambulance was the wrong decision and he should not follow what the consultant said either.
May I gently suggest you redirect your complaint to him due to his experience with AF and him calling the ambulance as per the direction of the consultant.

It’s not like he has been charged for this ‘abundance of caution’ and once he was initially triaged as not having a heart attack at A&E (which would have been done quickly) he could have gone home. He didn’t have to wait and have all the checks.

This sounds like mum and dad are a bit more anxious about his health than they are willing to show OP. They are entitled to be, of course. Often older generations can outwardly act like they’re okay and aren’t too worried, when they are actually terrified - especially in front of overwrought adult children.

Yes, but criticising staff and threatening with complaints is not the answer. This is so damaging to the individuals who work there. I totally disagree with you on this. The NHS is not an amorphous body. It’s an organisation of individual people working in less than ideal circumstances and crap pay. Complain to the MPs!

Only about half of 999 ambulance calls end up with a patient being conveyed to hospital. The other half are dealt with as ‘hear and treat’ over the telephone, ‘see and treat’ on scene, or referred to other services, so they do already work very flexibly with patients and their families. If a paramedic is advising you to go to hospital, there is a reason.

The system is not, and never will be, perfect because we are dealing with humans - human behaviour, human physiology….and no situation or body is the same. There is always an element of risk involved for paramedics making decisions. They are more likely to err on the side of caution because they have significant limitations in what they can test for, what information they can access and what they can rule in/rule out.

It's the system I'm criticising, not the staff.
Plus I'm just responding to a thread and ultimately, politicians read Mumsnet too.

They seem to waste enough ambulances and drinks and those with MH issues

It’s also not true. OP has very clearly misunderstood what was said - you do NOT ‘go to the back of the queue’ if you refuse to go to hospital. You have the right to refuse medical treatment as long as you are judged to have capacity to do so. It does not affect it priority you receive should you need to call an ambulance subsequent to that.

Oh for goodness sake get a grip!

So sick of people moaning, who have no idea about a paramedics role.
Paramedics are highly skilled frontline professionals who deliver essential, often life saving pre hospital care , bringing the expertise of the A&E apartment directly into the patient's home. When you call for an ambulance, do not think for one minute the paramedics will be parked up somewhere on their phones, sometimes they go 12 hrs shifts without as much of a bite into a sandwich and a sip of tea, if they are lucky. They work under intense pressure to quickly assess complex situations, stabilise patients and provide advanced treatments, ensuring the best possible care before and during the transportation to the hospital. Arriving by ambulance does not mean you become first in the queue. All patients are triaged through the hospital system, you are seen in critical time, not arrival time, ensuring the most vulnerable are seen first....
So anyone who thinks they can do better, should apply for training, so they can become a paramedics and show them all how it's done...So sick of people moaning, paramedics do their absolute best for everyone....

Is he definitely just waiting for his results to be reviewed or is there going to be a troponin test 12 hours apart?

Exactly this.

But wny, you called them. They responded to your call. They did what they thought was the correct thing to do. They have more expertise than you and your father. Thet see heart attacks all the time. They didnt tell you what you wanted to hear so now you are complaining. Dont call them if you dont want their help. A complaint wont go very far because they have done nothing wrong. Sounds like you are used to having your own way and have a few mh issues op.

Why are those with MH issues not entitled to an ambulance if they need one ?

They could have a car as they don't need a fully fitted ambulance with no physical issues

So you are suggesting someone having a mental health crisis heading to a&e should drive there? I’d rather someone with a broken arm drive than someone who is having suicidal thoughts.
I would bet that a lot of people would be able to get the hospital without an ambulance that use the service like a taxi service but wouldn’t single out MH.

No ffs. Like a car with a driver and MH nurse.
Not a fully fitted ambulance that the person doesn't need to use the fully fitted equipment.

I agree.

They want the NHS to jump to their call whenever they need it but then complain at the drop of a hat. It’s infuriating. If the DF ‘knew’ he didn’t need to go to hospital or have treatment then he shouldn’t have called an ambulance.

The paramedics probably deal with a lot of emergencies every night and don’t want to spend time arguing with entitled people that stop them from helping people who really want their assistance.