Paramedics made my father go to hospital

[wecangoupupup]

My father has atrial fibrillation. He has had this for years.

He has been told multiple times what to do in the case of an episode of AF. Today, he had one while I was visiting. It took a long time to pass, so in line with his consultant’s plan my mother called 999, after the usual medications had been given at home.

In the time it took for the paramedics to arrive, the attack passed and when they did arrive, it had been nearly an hour since it had ended.

They still made him go to hospital as they “couldn’t rule out a heart attack”, despite my father insisting that he knows his body, knows what an AF episode feels like and knows when it has passed. All he wanted was to go to bed and sleep off the effects of the beta blockers he had taken.

They still essentially made him go to hospital, saying that they would make him sign forms if he didn’t which showed he had refused medical advice. I was present and the paramedics essentially made it sound as though he would be at the back of the queue if it returned and he needed an ambulance again.

Fast forward 10 hours and he’s still in hospital, no doctors available to read his ECG or his blood test results, and he’s been sleeping in a hard plastic chair. AIBU to think this is ridiculous? Paramedics really shouldn’t be encouraging patients to attend hospital when it’s not necessary.

I can assure you your unfounded and quite ridiculous complaint will go nowhere.
I've just retired from the NHS after 40 yrs and it is people like you who make the job more soul destroying than you could ever imagine.
Shameful and entitled behaviour.

This is your insinuation and Nowhere in your OP was it mentioned that another ambulance would not be sent for.
You said that he would be put at the back of the queue if another ambulance had to be called.

Totally different scenario here.

Personally I think that you are being totally unreasonable

What an awful experience for your poor father (and you of course). Of course he knows his own body!

Next time you have to wait an entire hour for them to arrive on a busy Saturday Bank Holiday weekend, cancel the ambulance. That’ll show those ungrateful paramedics.

And when you and your dad say he knows his body and doesn’t want to go to A&E for tests, just sign the waiver form, that’ll show the lazy shysters who call themselves qualified and experienced professionals.

And next time you find yourselves kidnapped and forcibly taken to A&E, just get up and walk out of the door which is right there and never locked, as is your legal right, that’ll learn ‘em.

And when they want to utilise their years and years of qualifications and experience, just look them in the eye and say ‘no, my father knows his body’ (and just don’t mention the fact that his own wife called an ambulance because that was what she has been advised to do, as that weakens your point slightly).

And next time you’re stuck there for ten whole hours because some bastard put a cannula in your dads hand, rewind time and ‘just say no’ like Zammo from Grange Hill.

I hope you mentioned in your complaint that they were concerned for his health because that is outrageous. Bastards.

But most importantly, let us know how the complaint goes, ask for a written response because I could do with a laugh because I’m interested.

Love this.

I know! @wecangoupupup please post the response to your complaint!

To be completely honest the paramedics are covering their own backs. Some people, and their families are just stupid, selfish and mean anyway, others take on those attributes when a decision they make has catastrophic consequences. I'm sure this has really happened:

1. patient/family calls ambulance
2. ambulance arrives
3. patient/family says everything is ok
4. ambulance goes

Then one of the following happens

1. the pacient actually dies before the ambulance can be called again
2. the ambulance is called again but the patient dies waiting for it
3. the second ambulance comes but the patient dies before they get to hospital and receive care
4. the second ambulance comes and takes the patient to hopsital and the pacient recieves treatment but dies because of how much delay there's been
5. the second ambulance comes and takes the patient to hopsital and the pacient recieves treatment and lives, but with substantially more pain, disability and care needs than they would have done had they got to hospital sooner.

Sadly, I would be incredibly surprised if there have not been times were one of these situations has occurred and the patient or their family have not tried to blame/sue the first paramedics for denying them hospital the first time, either because their distress at the situation has made them convince themselves the paramedics are to blame, or because they are outright horrible scum who genuinely think damaging someone's career and potentially getting them labelled as a criminal is funny! Not AT ALL saying that you or your father would be like this, but the paramedics have every right to cover their own backs.

If he was so 100% sure that there was no heart attack and no impending one, why would the comment about a second ambulance not being sent have bothered him enough to go in?
So he must have had some concern that a second ambulance may have been needed if he stayed at home, otherwise he would have just confidently signed the forms?
His actions demonstrated he wasnt 100% sure, therefore a trip to a and e was necessary.

We only have OP's version of this story, and they are embellishing it with every post. It's far more likely they were told that an ambulance may take some time if needed to be called again - and not because they were put on some sort of blacklist.

I don’t understand why he called an ambulance and attended the hospital if he knows better? No one forced him. And if he wants to leave the hospital - he can just leave. You don’t need to ask anybody.

What else would you expect the paramedics to do??? Your mother called the ambulance service. Take up your grievance with her if it’s causing you such a big problem. Honestly! People dealing with the public just can’t win!

I knew when I read the title of this thread I shouldn’t click into it because the stupidity would make me so cross and I was right. Heart attacks can be classified as an ‘ST elevated myocardial infarction (STEMI)’ or a ‘non ST elevated myocardial infarction’ (NON-STEMI)’. An ambulance carries an ECG monitor and this monitor can only detect a STEMI. If a STEMI is detected the OPs dad would have been rushed on blue lights to a PPCI centre (primary percutainius catheterisation centre) with the paramedics giving drugs enroute to the surgeon meeting them and performing treatment straight away. Unfortunately the other form of heart attack is not detectable on the ECG machine and can only be detected by BLOOD TESTs in hospital. These can not be performed on an ambulance. Hence why the paramedics advised transpiring to hospital -to rule out the type of heart attack they had no way of testing for especially in light of the different /longer presentation of his AF. This is what the blood tests would have been taken once in ED. Turn around for troponin tests isn’t instant. They need sending to the lab, checked and booked in, loaded onto the machine, run with everyone else’s bloods and finally validated then results sent back to the doctors for review. If they had have come back high then I’m sure the lab would have flagged this for the drs to review quickly so treatment could be started. Instead of putting in a complaint about professional university educated staff who are somewhere through their 12 hour shift (with 30 mins lunch break) and day in day out give so much under constant pressure (they were probably correct, if he did have a heart attack or another atypical AF attack later they couldn’t guarantee an ambulance could attend in time as they aren’t exactly sitting around waiting for calls to come in) how’s about being grateful that he got the assessment and medical advice from trained medical professionals in his own home, and got taken to a place that could rule out the type of heart attack that they are unable to, and say a thank you that his bloods were clear and he wasn’t flagged at the top of the list from the lab? And that he can go home and see tomorrow And if you didn’t like the wait in ED write to your MP because the medical staff have no control over it. . Because many people
today will not have been so lucky. Yours sincerely-absolutely hopping mad and in despair at the human race

There are lots of areas where the nhs is not up to scratch but I’m really struggling to understand your rage with this one. It sounds like paramedics advised he went in to be double checked to be on the safe side. He did that and was checked albeit it took a long time. You both sound uptight and cantankerous to be honest. Is a 10 hour stint in AMU fun- no. However, he blatantly wasn’t just sat in a waiting room chair being ignored for that entire time. Doctors were presumably double checking his observations, considering history of the AF and other conditions.

Well.....I dont know how OP can complain. I am married to someone who self diagnoses like crazy and hes usually very wrong. Hes like a caged tiger when in hospital. He had stomach pain one evening. Face went ghostly translucent white. He felt sick. Refused to let me call 999 or take to A &E which is close by. Seversl days passed. He refused to eat. Got very weak in legs as a result. I took him to A & E as he thought he had a stomach ulcer. Admitted to Surgical Assessment Unit after CT scan showed something wrong. We didnt know what. He wanted desperately to self discharge. All explained to him. What was wrong though was bloods had 4 times max level of certain things. He had MRI. Endoscopy suggested - which he didnt want. They said there was a stone. They removed 3 stones blocking duct to pancreas. Care was very good. Its just my husband is impatient. Night before his endoscopy he was starting to look jaundiced in the face. All in all 12 days in hospital. 12 days pleading to self discharge and 3 attempted escapes. From a wifes point of view it would have been hell dealing with all this at home so Im very grateful for his treatment.

If he’s had loads and knows what to do, why was an ambulance called?

Because it was an atypical presentation (went on longer than normal for him) hence the protocol from his CARDIAC CONSULTANT was to phone 999 for further assessment because the atypical presentation could indicate something else was going on (ie heart attack /other cardiac issues). However instead of trust the advice of the paramedics who know they can only test for all types of heart attack/cardiac issues in a hospital setting, the OP wants to complain about them doing their job properly. Not every heart attack has a classic ‘clutching the chest’ presentation (which is why so many heart attacks in women who have especially Unclassic symptoms get completely missed). I do hope the OP also puts in a complaint about the cardiac consultant because how dare he also do his job and suggest they phone 999??? Because maybe , like the paramedics and hospital staff they know more than the OP about these things and are trying to keep her dad alive ???

Sorry for typos -it’s late and I’m tired.
Off to sleep whilst my other half works for the 12 hour night shift and sleeps through my birthday and that of our small son tomorrow so he can go do it all again Sunday night for the ungrateful public.

OP, you progressed very rapidly from saying the ambulance crew suggested there might be a long wait if he needed them again, to insisting they told him straight up there would be no ambulance for him.

His specialist instructed him to call 999 to attend hospital in these circumstances. He called 999 but then decided not to attend. You're lambasting the paramedics for pressing him to follow his surgeon's advice?

The protestations about "what if he really was having a heart attack?" miss the point entirely. If he were, he'd be treated with urgency - and somebody else's Dad would be waiting all day for his necessary but non-urgent treatment.

17:57 the paramedics essentially made it sound as though he would be at the back of the queue if it returned and he needed an ambulance again

18:02 They also made it sound like there wouldn’t be an ambulance later for him if needed

18:04 It’s the instruction of his cardiac surgeon that ... he’s to call 999 to attend hospital

18:08 Their insinuation was that a second ambulance wouldn’t be sent

18:09 they insinuated

18:13 They then resorted to what was essentially bullying - if you don’t come, you won’t get an ambulance if you need one.

18:18 I don’t think their job is to tell someone that if they have a heart attack an ambulance won’t be sent to them

18:19 They still maintained that if anything happened an ambulance wouldn’t be sent.

18:20 they said an ambulance wouldn’t be sent.

18:25 half the issue is the paramedics have never heard of it so don’t know how to treat it. 😂Paramedics have definitely heard of atrial fibrillation!

I get that you were worried about your father. It's normal to look for people to blame when things are frightening. The people are not at fault.

You are complaining about wasted time and now want to waste NHS resources...

No one wants to go to hospital unnecessarily and no one wants to wait around for 10 hours in A&E but seriously take a step back. The paramedics did their job here. Imagine if they’d left and your df had had a heart attack. What would you be saying then.

This post really demonstrates your complete lack of insight and understanding into paramedics who were just trying to do their job.

Of course paramedics know what atrial fibrillation is.

I mean literally EVERY paramedic will know what it is.

It's the most common tachyarrythmia affecting about 10 percent of the elderly population.

Paroxysmal AF can make people profoundly unwell and if it's associated with any cardiac sounding chest pain then acute coronary syndromes need to be excluded as they have been.

Of course all competent adults can and have the right to refuse medical treatment, nobody dragged your FIL screaming and kicking to a hospital.

So you called an ambulance (notoriously overstretched) didn’t cancel it for an hour and got upset that he wasn’t a priority despite feeling fine?

you would have been whacked with a 1000 dollar bill in Australia, bet you would have cancelled it then hey?

So why call emergency services? I have AF too. I’ve called 999. One I refused to go to hospital as they did warn it was 8 hr in the ambulance before getting into hospital, and I didn’t want to be the cause of someone’s else not getting an ambulance. They made me promise to see GP in the morning and get someone to take me in if necessary. As the ecg showed I wasn’t in the middle of a heart attack.
They did their job in your case. Not their fault the hospital was too busy. They have to cover themselves. If he’s so on top of things, why call 999?

Your complaints are ridiculous absolutely ridiculous. You’re time wasting and wasting the NHS funds.

Hopefully it’ll be one of the services trialling body cams. Then her inferred/insinuated/said confusion can be cleared up!

This is hilarious.
Can you please provide the name of the private hospital that has an A&E with emergency cardiac care?