why is it hard to like other people’s boy children

[Halfmunch]

I am a mother to girls, and have no brothers and I admit I don’t have much experience of raising or being around boys. The boys in my life I can find them overwhelming, frustrating and to be honest, self centred and lazy.

However, I am wondering if this is related to how people parent the boys, and a patriarchal society rather than the boys - as in it’s not their fault, they were not born this way. Is this something other parents have noticed, like Little Prince Syndrome?

My husband has a 12yo son and even after 5 years I struggle to bond with him. I have 2 x 9yo nephews and I also struggle with them. All 3 kids have different parents.

The boys are all overbearing in conversations - yell and talk over everyone else and already at their age ?!? mansplain and refuse to accept explanations or answers, challenging everything, ie. They all seem to ‘know better’ when a female answers a question and all have very singular topics they are only interested in, not interested in other people really. Step son is obsessed with football, so everything you do has to centre around that, and if it doesn’t, he’s completely disinterested in anything else and just mopes about.

I notice the boys all seem to opt out of clearing up, after a meal finished they will return to either talking about their chosen topic without noticing everyone else is clearing up, or go do their own activity, and have to be asked/reminded to do even minor tasks such as take a plate to the kitchen. I often watch them at family parties and while everyone else is pitching in, they have wandered off kicking a ball around quietly and when asked to help ‘oh I didn’t realise…’ however if it’s something slightly dangerous, they will barge in and get in your way even if you don’t want them to help they feel entitled to ‘help’ like SS demanding to be allowed to ‘light the BBQ’ unsupervised

They are nice boys, but I often read posts on here about people’s useless husbands, and think hmm well, there seems to be an awful lot of these males around… and it probably starts young!

My DH often feels frustrated as he’s very much an equal partner with a female, and believes in equality. He feel like he’s always nagging his son to try to get him to learn about life but many females seem to enable this! DH’s mum acts like SS is made of china, and my mum is the same with my nephew.

Is there a way we can tackle this as society?

I agree.

You are using familial references to make your point but also unfortunately you are falling into the trap of not questioning your culture systems, media and information systems have shaped your perception. Ideological extremes are part of the problem e.g. the manosphere, constantly positioning ourselves in this polarised way is part of the problem, society has forgotten how to pay attention and critically reflect on what is in front of them.

I think this is a really thought provoking topic, OP - although when I read your initial post I couldn't help but feel that with such a nuanced topic:

• You are at risk of confirmation bias towards young boys' behaviour, based on your personal experiences of DV.
• There is a high chance that if you choose a position without keeping an open mind, then it'll just be a self-fulfilling prophecy for you, in that you will already be expecting your SS to do something that will bother you and make you resent him. I can't really comment on your nephews because you don't have any parental responsibility - but it could be argued that the same thing applies.

Boys do develop and mature more slowly than girls and 12 is a tough age for any kid, particularly when they live in such a grown up world with so much outside influence. It's not clear whether or not SS lives with you or stays some of the time, but if it's the latter, are you (as one of the key adults in his life) checking yourself every single time to make sure that you are giving him a chance to have any attempts at behaving well recognised? If you are looking for issues before they happen, then that reinforces a negative view for him. He may just think 'sod it, she thinks I'm naughty anyway, her body language is hostile and she is always ready to have a go at me/frown at me so I might as well not try to do better'.

That's not to say that there's anything wrong with what you are doing - and he obviously isn't your child. It's good that your DH is backing you up but is he doing enough? Because it sounds like he isn't, if the problems are ongoing. Does your DH have a good understanding of how SS is doing in terms of educational attainment and health? Is DH aware of anything that could be affecting his behaviour - for example is he watching any "influencers" on Twitch or other platforms? Who are they? Does DH have oversight of his online behaviour?

It's also sad to hear that the girls in the household are finding it difficult, which is more reason to get to the bottom of any underlying issues. He may be deeply insecure in himself and acting out as a way of trying to have some control. I'm sure he is annoying (I don't doubt that at all) but it might be better to understand the reason and work on bonding with him, rather than staying angry. He is a little boy, even if he doesn't seem like one.

I don't jumping to examples about the Kray twins or toxic masculinity in terms of any of these boys is necessarily helpful at this point in terms of your SS or nephews, although I do think you've made some interesting points.

I hope you receive this reply as it's intended (to add some points, not to be combative)

I only had dds, but had no problem with boys as long as they weren’t badly behaved brats.
Could say the same about whiny, sulky girls. From experience, slightly more common than objectionable boys.

So, no problem with any nice children!

@yebba2026 this are well reasoned and valid good point about my own bias and I think I did recognise it half way through, my own experiences shaped my opinions so it’s hard to separate them, but seeing the impact upon girls of this behaviour is alarming and being a woman around these boys can have concerns

SS is with us a lot.
SS appears to have a misogynistic step dad
DSD has certainly noticed step dad issue
SS is not on any social media

My husband has feminist views and I do think he’s trying his best with that he knows- my job is sometimes best off to be the person who is educating my husband peer to peer on women, rather than his child directly. This means I am not getting on at his child all the time nagging but saying to DH - it’s not ok when this happens for XYZ. We watched the manosphere documentary together as an educational view point.

Look I mentioned the Krays as I had a lot of angry mummies explaining how their boy was so super loving towards them and their girl was a complete nightmare hard work. A boy being cuddly doesn’t mean this isn’t an issue. And perhaps the girl children pick up on who you also secretly prefer? It works both ways

You can describe behaviours without needing to hate anyone. Descriptors are not inherently hateful
You didn’t use the word hate but you used the word dislike in your first post, indeed in your title.
Dislike of the boys themselves that is, not the behaviour.

I don’t deny society’s problems, but you have very little experience with raising young boys and I wonder if some of the behaviours that you find overwhelming, challenging and frustrating are a result of your unfamiliarity with typical boy development? A result of comparing them to typically developing girls?

Boy children are typically more boisterous than girls, their coordination develops later, as do more advanced language skills. They have more testosterone and less serotonin which means they can be more impulsive, hyper, physical. My primary teacher friend finds that while girls have no trouble queuing up quietly outside the classroom, boys of the same age are unable to do so (they queue, but their limbs seem to be everywhere!) This is not naughtiness, it is how they typically develop.

Could you be misinterpreting some of this normal behaviour in young boys as aggression or entitlement?

I want to be clear that I absolutely agree with you that boys should not be taught to be entitled, that they should be raised carefully, that toxic masculinity has no place in society. However, I also fear that to some extent you may be judging boys very harshly simply because they are not the same as your girls.

Yeah we do talk about it. DH is very open minded to learning and being around our nephews certainly reinforces the need to adapt your parenting.

DH does sometimes let him dominate conversation and we get talked AT and I have asked him not to let this happen as often, SS has to learn to let girls talk and listen (he shouts over girls) and SS certainly gets told if he is not pulling his weight and we do not have any girl or boy jobs in the house. The girls are not expected to do anything the boys don’t do.

However as my OP said, this often is an issue in extended families so MIL’s and grandparents can cause issues with out dated ideas

Thank you for taking my comments in a constructive way. I try not to judge and wouldn't want you to feel criticised.

It does sound like your husband means well, but that the status quo isn't working. If you are a feminist and you want to lead by example, then would it not be beneficial for you to be more hands-on in role modelling for your SS, rather than what sounds like hiding behind your DH to do it?

It doesn't sound like having a Mexican standoff with a child from the age of 7 is doing either of you (or the wider family) any good at all. Could you take a different approach? It's never too late to change things and as the adult, you are the one who can make that happen.

You say that he isn't allowed social media but that doesn't mean he isn't on it. Does he have his own phone/tablet/PC? Does he have freedom to spend time gaming online without being supervised? The answers to these questions may be no but I'm asking if you actually know, as it doesn't sound like you do. It sounds like you don't speak with this child very much on a one-to-one basis at all.

If he and his sister do have a misogynistic stepdad, that is totally out of their control. They don't get to have any say over who their parents form relationships with. If he was 7 when his Dad got into a relationship with you (and he has picked up on you not bonding with him) and his Mum has also got into a relationship with someone you describe as a misogynist, then the poor lad has not had a great childhood has he? We are all shaped by our environment.

His sister may seem ok now but there is a chance that as she grows up, she will have mental health issues as a result of poor parenting - and that includes your DH and you, I'm sorry to say. That isn't meant as a criticism, but more a point that the more safe and secure a child feels, the more likely they are to meet their developmental milestones as they grow up.

@Purpletable we have multiple children and one of the girls is ADHD and quite high energy (talkative and physically on the go) and the youngest girl is really physically active and always doing something sporty or imaginative. So no I don’t think I have girls who just sit down meekly plaiting doll hair. They can be moody, that’s my experience

The experience I have is that the boys have limited interests and if they aren’t able to do them, they find it hard to think of anything else to do and begin to cause mischief. They also have been socialised to not help out with chores, either by disappearing when it’s their turn or doing them really slowly and badly. However when it’s something that does interest them (something dangerous usually) they are front of the queue offering to help and mummy and daddy are ‘so proud’ of their little prince offering to help. My niece doesn’t get the same praise

I could list endless things here I’ve seen my nephews and SS do or not do, this includes:

-not wiping their bums properly and general bad toilet habits even when older
-never washing their hands after the toilet
-leaving the loo seat up despite being reminded not to
-starting to use the toilet in the bathroom, without asking, whilst a female sibling is in there brushing their teeth
-demanding to sit in the front of the car with dad when he’s driving and expecting the girls sit in the back
-demanding or expecting the biggest portion of something
-saying derogatory things about girls being weak
-not passing footballs to girls when they want to play football
-dangerously overtaking girls on bikes on a narrow path because they want to be in front and faster
-hurting a girl with their weight like sitting on her
-being very slow and bad at chores and disappearing when it’s time to clear up
-mansplaining and refusing to accept no as an answer

the girls get told off for:
-saying mean things
-lashing out and hitting
-stealing each others stuff
-leaving their stuff everywhere
-back chatting
-not listening and arguing back

The girls behaviour is not acceptable in society either. However as I’ve explained, these things do not have as much of a big impact upon society in terms of crime/offending

The domestic abuse rate against teenage girls is rising sadly there’s a recent report confirming this. It shouldn’t be taken as a personal attack on people’s individual sons but there is a problem here that needs to be recognised.

So no I don’t think I have girls who just sit down meekly plaiting doll hair.

But I didn’t for a second suggest you had?

@yebba2026 there is no Mexican stand off

I refuse to babysit my nephew anymore but thats my sisters problem, not mine. I still spend time with him in a family sense, just not in the capacity of childcare as I do not agree with her parenting choices so I am not suitable for this role in her life.

I can’t win though, in one breath I’m told it’s too intense and not my role, the other I need to be more hands on. He’s my husbands son so and he has a mother, so I am not as directly involved. I support my husband where I can and I do try to educate my SS without being too harsh. He’s not on this forum he's 12

No he has no phone or internet access.

I’m not looking for marital or parenting advice

yes, I have said plenty of times we are shaped by our environment.. this is my point?

This is an issue with how these kids are raised...nothing to do with their sex!

Some of the things you mention on your list are down to poor parenting, others are more natural behaviours at a particular age, for example the overtaking on a bike, wanting to be in front. Boys do that to one another too. You may be looking at that particular behaviour as sexist because that’s the idea already in your head. I always wanted the biggest slice of something when I was small (all of us kids did, boys and girls).
At least some of this is confirmation bias on your part I feel.

I have three boys, no girls. I’ll take boys any day over girls.

@Purpletable I don’t know how many other ways to agree that it’s parenting

But it’s its how society views and treats boys vs girls

much of this is acceptable in boys as they are seen as ‘boisterous’ and ‘boys will be boys’ and ‘boys do this to other boys’ so it’s irrelevant? You have already mentioned all of these tropes to try to prove I’m sexist

these are all excuses

just because other boys don’t mind, doesn’t mean it’s acceptable.

girls do not like these things the boys do. They don’t like it as children and they don’t like it as adults when it’s even more misogynistic and entrenched toxic masculinity

No, I said some of it is parenting. I said there are developmental differences between boys and girls but you’re dismissing that as ‘tropes’.

They do develop differently and that needs to be taken into account. They are often more boisterous. Some of it is socialisation, some personality (of course), but some is just the fact that boys’ development is not the same as girls’. There are coordination differences and language differences as children for example.

Talk to teachers or child psychologists if you don’t believe me.

@Purpletable my understanding of these differences is that the approach is to break down the barriers of gender stereotypes.

boys should be taught how to express emotions, and culture emotional intelligence rather than be told boys don’t cry, or to rely on use their physical presence to communicate.

The reason why all the angry posters on this thread say boys are easier to raise than girls is that girls are seen as too emotional and high maintenance. boys are seen as happy, with basic emotional needs, and don’t need as much emotional nurturing as girls, and more importantly from what I read here, far more likely to make their mothers feel warm, fuzzy, protective and loved than the girls do.

Girls are described in this thread as ‘needy, whiny, demanding’.

That is how we as society see emotions. So we are far more likely to accept a boys behaviour as compliant and easier, when in fact what is happening is that the girls are getting resentful of the differences in how they are being treated and the boys develop low emotional intelligence and entitled behaviour. If you have low expectation of your boys emotional intelligence, he can’t disappoint you.

If we all started recognising this it would be a good start

My son is great.

I'm very much not a NAMALT - but in this case, not all boys are like that! Also I'm getting sick of so many posts slagging off younger people on MN. At this rate it should be renamed Angry Older Person's Net.

I'm not trying to give you marital advice? In terms of parenting advice, if you take it that way I can't stop you.

You've said, "boys should be taught how to express emotions, and culture emotional intelligence rather than be told boys don’t cry, or to rely on use their physical presence to communicate".

I agree, yet you are leaving the parenting to your DH, despite you being a married couple and one half of the responsible adults within your home. You could be spending 1:1 time with your SS, getting to the root of his behaviour, finding out what makes him tick and whether he has any worries. You didn't answer the question about whether your DH knows how SS is doing at school? If he is struggling, he can be referred for talking therapy. Do you know if he is affected by trauma? I would think it's possible with the amount of upheaval he has already experienced in his young life.

It sadly sounds like you have written this lad off and therefore nothing is going to improve. I don't think you can go around labelling 12 year old boys and suggesting that they pose a threat to the girls in your home, without taking some ownership of the issue.

You seem to be hellbent on this being a boys vs girls issue and also blaming the parenting of other people. However, when you marry a man who already has children then they come as a package. You may not see it as a parental duty to ensure that this boy is raised with the values that you want him to have, but if you don't then nobody else is going to do it? Your husband is clearly not doing enough so it sounds like a united front is needed here.

Obviously you might just want to ignore all advice and rant into the void about how all boys are going to become future abusers. Can't do much about that other than disagree. It seems to me that the outcome here depends on the input you are willing to invest to improve the situation.

I’m not at all a fan of gender stereotypes so I agree with you there.

It wasn’t actually gender stereotypes I was talking about upthread though. It was the innate differences in child development between boys and girls…the nature part rather than the nurture part if you will. I’m still not sure if you accept the differences are real? I hope you do. I think it’s unfair on the boys in your life otherwise.

This is a you problem OP and theres no doubt in my mind your stepson feels it from you, he probably doesnt bother much as he knows hes being compared to your precious princesses.
I have boys and they are the most gorgeous, kind, funny, caring and affectionate people I know. Open your mind a bit and you'll realise it has nothing to do with gender