To think that women reading erotica, however smutty, is not the same as men watching porn?

[Carla786]

I've seen some posts here and various articles elsewhere speak of women reading smutty books as if it's equivalent to men watching porn.
I can see how if a woman read huge amounts of them they might have unrealistic expectations. How common is this though?

I've had the misfortune to read a few pages of masterpieces like 'Bull Moon Rising' and 'Morning Glory Milking Farm' and I think the 'monster mance' trend is quite grim. I also find the popularity of dark romance including rape & abuse disturbing.

So I agree with some criticisms of romance fiction trends. But isn't equivalent to porn. Porn usually involves real actors, and even if the scene isn't violent, pressure is rife, performers suffer from injuries, men are pressured into using viagra to keep erections going. None of these issues are present in romance fiction.

Romance fiction doesn't lead men to suffer physical harm either. What romance novel has led to men being choked or pressured into anal sex?

I feel that sometimes coverage seems to want to imply that men and women' faults are equivalent. But if one sex is worse at something, men or women, it should be permitted to say that : if that's the reality. And I think porn is clearly worse. This doesn't mean issues with romance fiction shouldn't be discussed, it just means there' no need to equate them

AIBU?

How did people manage beforehand?

I don’t think I said that.

But if it’s not depicting a romantic relationship with a happy ending, it is not a romance novel. Just like not every book with a murder in it is a murder mystery. There are genre conventions.

Plenty of really great books depict romantic relationships which don’t end well, non-romantic relationships, and sex scenes of all levels of explicitness.

Reading erotica can - does not necessarily, but can - have a negative effect on a real life relationship, in the same way that porn can. Reading romance is, imo, much less likely to have that effect.

Do you find sex disgusting too by any chance?

But how is it disgusting though? If you think words on a page is disgusting, then how are sexual thoughts/fantasies any different?

No? There are lots of things we do in life that I don't need to read about and be voyeuristic about. I live in reality. I don't need others fiction or imagination.

I dont agree with porn male or female. I'm not a hypocrite pretending female version is ok but not male. End of.

I think a major part of the problem with porn is people acting out their fantasies in real life, eg choking. Porn films involve real people at risk, but surely anything stoking violent fantasy risks real life re-enactment? If someone is reading choking erotica, I think there’s just as much risk that they’ll act it out as if they watched porn. And of course given the size/strength differential, it is mainly a problem when it is men trying to re-enact something violent.

I’m not trying to say that porn doesn’t have specific risks to the actors, but a lot of pp have already covered that.

That's not always true. Fanny Hill (John Cleland) is published under Penguin Classics. People have written erotica probably since before the Romans - there's certainly examples in Latin.

Written stuff isn't the same as filmed - there are no real people exploited. I do think it can make certain scenarios and act seem more acceptable, however. Written versions can play down the pain and exploitation that could be involved. So it's not necessarily a force for good, but it is not the same as filmed porn.

Yes women like to be sexually dominated by men. Quite a common fantasy, and for many a reality in the bedroom also.

I would argue that romance fiction sets wildly unrealistic expectations for relationships that it’s probably had a significantly more detrimental effect overall than erotica.

I was drafting a post in my mind and then @Wospa wrote it exactly. I gave up filmed porn having developed an occasional habit despite ethical concerns, when I finally saw something that hit my personal limit. I’m very glad that age verification is now better.

I would differentiate between erotica (at least potentially has some literary merit) and written porn (Literotica, old school letters to Forum etc).

There are anti-women forces insisting that women reading written porn is exactly the same as men watching filmed porn; trying to equate women reading it in public with men watching porn in public with a captive unwilling audience, eg on trains. I’d say the former is fine and the latter should get the watcher thrown off the train and eventually prosecuted for public indecency, personally.

Erotic fiction is hardly a modern invention...

That's potentially a risk but I think mainly men who choke tend to have got this from porn. I don't think they tend to read these books and I don't think it's that common for women who like this stuff to want to reenact it in their real sex lives.

Otoh I don't know that by evidence, it's just a hunch. I don't think it's that common but there are certainly cases where women push men to act out sadistic scenes the men don't actually want to do. I didn't like Normal People much but I appreciated the book raised this topic : Conor feeling pushed to do BDSM stuff to Marianne that he didn't actually want to do. This is obviously very wrong.

The only similarity I can see is the reason for doing it - both are used for titilation and stimulation - often for masturbation.

The likelihood of desensitisation and addiction however are not the same at all and porn is most definitely more damaging to women generally, but the 50 shades books hardly helped us in that regard! Not to mention GoT ughhh

And calling them "romance novels"?? Come on totally glosses over and diminishes the depravity of the content of erotica - a lot of which have similarly yuk themes as in porn!

Some women. But yes, I agree with the main point: it's certainly more common for women to want that than men.

No, because no one is harmed by writing or reading erotica

Don't underestimate how words can be damaging in a less direct or obvious way, but more insidious way. The amount of smut around incest and step daughter/daddy themes contributes to the broader narrative that damages women.

Not directly
But literature contributes directly to attitudes and beliefs! And these beliefs DO harm people.

Why do people write this crap? Do lots of women really have incest fantasies??🤢

Of course it’s not the same. Fiction is just made up stuff, so it doesn’t matter what you read or write for sexual pleasure - it’s not actually happening to anyone IRL or facilitating abuse

I can't believe that Mumsnet users are so ignorant about all the fanfiction there is on the internet, 99% of which is written by women for women and probably 90% of which is between mild erotica and heavy duty porn! One famous site is celebrating its 10 millionth user this year.
Especially since Star Trek slash has been going since the 1960s...

It's grim isnt it!

Can I introduce you to Sappho?

Never saw Kirk and Spock, myself….

I makes me think lots of men just don’t have the same imagination. They need actual people on a screen to get their rocks off. With that comes the risk of harm, coercion, and the possibility that the people you’re watching have been trafficked. Knowing all that, I cannot stand video porn. Even the idea one person in it has not consented makes me feel sick.

Erotica and the written word are great. Don’t directly cause harm, and allow your imagination to come to the fore. I used to love a bit of Adult Fan Fiction when I was younger. Human sexuality is quite expansive, and as long as everyone is consenting I don’t think there needs to be judgement on what people do in their private time.