To believe the school over my dd?

[durdledoris]

Dd is in year 9 - was always an angel at primary , smashed her sats etc but now in year 9 isn't quite the angel she used to be. Has a lovely friend group but we quite often get emails from school saying she has been sanctioned in class for low level disruption- never goes any further than that and when we speak to her about it, it's always the same "it wasn't my fault" response. Never her fault.
Today she got a detention - apparently a boy behind her kept throwing paper at her so when she did it back, she got in trouble. The email from school said it was because she was disruptive and kept turning around.
We have been talking to her lately about her upcoming GCSE's and we know she will be ditching a few subjects but it's not fair to ruin it for others who want to learn so basically, in those subjects, keep a low profile amd do what you have to do to get through til the end of the,year, which is only a few weeks.
She is crying in her room saying it wasn't her fault today - aibu to keep her phone and tv remote while she has a long hard think about her behaviour?

And equally schools could concentrate on teaching instead of worrying about what kids are wearing.

The reported 'behaviour' issues have improved massively at my daughters school in the past 12 months.

Last year, they relaxed the uniform policy in terms of strictness - they started to allow trainers, as long as they were plain black, they started to allow jewellery and multiple piercings as long as it wasn't massive hoops and was taken off for PE, they allowed makeup and hair dye and basically started allowing kids to express their individuality.

The number of reported behaviour incidents has reduced because they no longer include children whose trousers are a bit short (yes, one child was actually sanctioned for growing!) or who happen to have forgotten to take a ring off.

In addition, teachers are spending less time policing and punishing children for infringements of a patently ridiculous policy which means they have been able to focus on more serious behaviour issues and the children generally feel more able to express themselves, and feel less need to push back against restrictions because the rules that are in place make more sense.

As a result general behaviour has also improved and there are fewer serious behaviour incidents.

We shouldn't be teaching our children to just roll over for unfair and illogical rules or go elsewhere. We should be teaching them how to think critically and how to make an argument for change, and if necessary how to protest.

I got several ridiculous rules changed when I was at school, not by breaking them, but by engaging with teachers and school leaders about why they were wrong, making a coherent argument and presenting the evidence.

The teachers gave me the opportunity to make my arguments, and listened when I presented my evidence - including one particularly memorable 'business case' about why there was enough room on the school car park for year 12's to bring their cars, if only they'd put proper lined bays in, which saw me out there on my free period with a meter wheel having researched the standard size for a parking bay.

Where the hell would we be today if Emeline Pankhurst, Rosa Parks, MLK and Ghandi had just followed the rules?

I’m with you. I believe parents should back the school and would also invoke a punishment at home. If school and parents work together it has far more impact. I’ve never, ever had a teacher of the DC’s correct that, in fact the opposite.

I have also found that this approach means I get listened to if I think there is a point of further discussion.

Teaching children it's ok for them to be punished for something they didn't do because they might have done something else is fucking awful, really fucking awful.

Lucky for the world and our children that plenty of people don't accept the life of a snivelling jobsworth toad as adults and aren't afraid of trying to effect change.

I agree with you. My high school only started allowing girls to wear trousers as we started. We tried to get the school to allow girls to play football while we were there and they gave in a few years after we left when other girls took it up year after year. Good on everyone who has come across a stupid rule and got it changed.

I suspect Emmeline, Martin, Ghandi and Rosa paid attention at school, which is why they were able to make educated decisions that benefited society generally.

Quite different to being an entitled, disruptive individual that simply wants to bore off their education and negatively effect their cohort.

People holding teenage children to higher standards of decency that they themselves manage on an internet forum talking about said children. People are absolute dicks about children.

Due to the huge amount of minor level disruption in addition to the deliberate disruptive behaviour many schools use the step warning system. First reminder, then now you have a C1, then goes to a C3, C3 and finally C4 for removal. These cases can escalate within seconds when a student is agitated and this can of course be for genuine reasons like your DD.

Yes it does seem unfair and expererienced teachers are aware and use their judgement but you still have to follow this criteria.

To get to detention stage it does involve several warnings so your DD needs to try to control her reactions, let the teacher deal with the ones instigating silly behaviour. Easier said I know. Xx

The UK is so different to many other countries, where there has never been a uniform and indeed no need for it to use as a tool for behaviour control.

I say this as an Engish woman who has taught in different countries and sad to share that there are significant differences in attitude and respect for teachers/school property and basic rules.

As a teacher: keep her phone until her behaviour improves. Low level disruption is such a pain in the bollocks and makes it impossible to teach! Running around a classroom at year 9 is just embarrassing and pathetic, not surprised the teacher was pissed.

This. Completely different to just being defiant in lessons.

She wasn't running around! But agree it is v annoying for teacher and those who want to learn

Unless it’s a big transgression (bullying, violence, swearing etc) I won’t add any extra consequences at home. The ones given by the school are enough. Is it ever her fault? Of course, not (in her eyes) . And the one or two times it actually isn’t, I remind her of the dozen of things she actually does get away with and consider it a consequence for those times , if she moans it’s “not faaaaaair!”.

It’s not a little transgression. This isn’t her first offence either. She is actively stopping the teacher from teaching which impacts all the class especially the kids that want to learn. My daughter was in lower sets and would try and work so hard to move up. She would get so upset when lessons where constantly disrupted and she didn’t understand the topics being taught

When there’s water fights going on in the middle of a test (where she does have her head down and trying her best) or when one of her teachers tells me he’s not good at discipline and doesn’t like doing it , so it’s up to her to focus , ignore any behaviours and learn…. throwing a paper back or whatever counts as a minor transgression to me and the school has already dealt with it.

Critical thinking skills, developed alongside comprehension and an understanding of context are so important and are sorely lacking in modern society.

Context skills would allow anyone who read my comment to see that I was clearly responding to someone who believed that parents should just send their children to a different school if they didnt like unecessarily strict uniform rules, rather than challenging those rules.

The comparison with Parkes, Pankhurst, MLK and Ghandi was in relation to being defiant against pointless and unfair rules in a way that achieves change rather than blindly following those rules. It was not about being allowed to be disruptive for no reason.

Comprehension skills would enable a reader to see that I provided a real life example of how less focus on unproductive and pointless rules leads to improved behaviour overall.

It is possible to set behaviour expectations while treating children as individuals and allowing them to develop those skills.

It is very sad that many schools these days only seem to value unquestioning compliance and use strict, pointless rules to enforce it rather than helping children to become fully rounded individuals.

it was always like that. But choosing to send your child to a school with a strict uniform policy is a choice you make. The people you list were dealing with actual issues and injustice.

Surely part of critical thinking is understanding when something is unjust and should be fought, and just complaining because little Johnny wore the wrong shoes where the school policy is set in stone.

And when you say ‘these days’ I think schools allow more freedom than they ever did in the 70s and 80s. I see girls caked in thick make up on their way to school whereas we weren’t allowed any under any circumstances.

We were generally scared of the teachers (the metre ruler was still a punishment in my school in the early 80s) so had to sit down and shut up!

Except many parents don't get a choice about where to send their children.

Fighting injustice is not just about the big things world changing things, the little things are often just as, if not more important.

When I speak to my kids or nibblings about something they think is unfair, I get them to think about why the rule is in place. Sometimes they come to the conclusion that they don't like it but understand the reason for it.

If they still think its unfair, I talk them through how they can challenge that rule in a way that is likely to get results. If its a school rule, I encourage them to ask to speak to the relevant teacher, or join the school Council or whatever where they can make the argument for change.

I also make it clear to them that they should do it in the right way e.g. not be disruptive in class, and to either try a different way or suck it up if they are not successful in their campaign.

To say school policies are set in stone is patently ridiculous and just complaining for the sake of it is not a valid response. But effecting change by pointing out unfairness or the benefits of change is more than valid.

Sure, getting changes made to a uniform policy so that kids can wear more comfortable shoes, dye their hair purple or get a second set of piercings isn't going to change the world, but it is going to teach children how to successfully effect change through conversation, debate, collaboration and using logic and evidence.

And those children will take those skills into an adulthood where they may very well end up using them to effect bigger, history making changes.

Or we could just teach them to wear what they are told, ask permission to regulate their own bodies, to not dare show any individualism, to accept without question what someone in a position of power over them says...I'm sure there is no harm in that at all 🙄

It wasn't like that at all when I was at school in the 90's.

Perhaps I just had really good teachers 🤷‍♀️

I didn’t wear a uniform growing up and my kids do here. But there were rules for no uniforms - nothing offensive , nothing too revealing, no flip flops etc. So we could wear what we liked but within boundaries and there were consequences if you didn’t. People understood that and we followed the rules.

I don’t understand uniforms. Such a needless, unnecessary rule for children.

No, well it wouldn’t be, would it? It was 20 years later

I don”t know what nibblings are.

Im not suggesting everything should be blindly accepted. You have the ability yo teach them how to effect change but most people don’t.

When the kids were in trouble at school and did the “so unfair” thing we said ok we will talk to them but if you are not white as snow in this it will not go well for anyone. I can only think of 2 occasions when we actually stepped in. (4 kids).

This
And the teachers probably a bitch
Give the kid a break. Least she is social and ok still ? As its a shitty age.
Grades and achievements being taught by a teacher like that. Go figure.
Strict is outdated.. cant the teacher cope
Go tell her teacher to get her act together and punishkwnt does little for all of them.
Going from a strict teacher to a mellow one in the oast year really put a end to to simliar shit..
Ps ateqcher who taught a friends child a year bwhind me picked on her constantly becuase shes a savvy kid..broke my heart to hear how often she was called out in class..become a joke between us to help her cope...oh what have u done wrong today ....