To think that children with special needs should be included in mainstream schools where ever possible

[ReallyTired]

Before I get really stoned, I do work in a special school and I know and I know quite a few children with special needs. The school I work at is very good and the kids make fanastic progress.

I think its right that there are some special schools, for children who really cannot cope socially or academically with mainstream. Even then I think children at special schools/ special units should mix with mainstream children as much as possible.
However I think its a mistake to think that special schools are a pancera for everything wrong in state state education.

Children who attend special schools often spend quite a long time travelling to school. Their course choices at keystage 4 are often limited because a special school is very small. The very small number of children can make it hard to find a good friend. Especially for girls who are often out numbered by boys.

I think that for inclusion to work there has to be more than just extra funding. Secondary schools need to be smaller. Somehow schools need to achieve a more human scale, prehaps by splitting larger secondary schools into smaller units. Maybe we should have middle schools like Bedfordshire.

There are children like young carers or children in local authority care who get forgotten about. When you get to know an individual child you realise that they aren't a monster, in fact they are just like your child. Inclusion needs money and resources to work well.

I have the opposite problem and would like ds1 to be on the bus slightly longer! He's just this minute been picked up and will be back by 3.30pm. Very friendly bus as well- the escorts have just told me the driver fancies my Mum

DS1's school is far from quiet as well 2shoes. It's a very lively and bustly place - but small classes so never overwhelming in the way that classes of 30 were for ds1.

The main factor though is environment. DS1 cannot explore anywhere safely unless there are very high fences/walls and locked doors. He needs that to be able to develop any sort of independence. This pretty much makes inclusion impossible.

It depends,

I attended both types of schools. I was still bullied at the sn school, which caused me to leave. On the positive side however, I grew very close to some of my teachers and friends and I was able to participate in Drama, Ski Club, sports, etc.

On the other hand, when somoene threw a water balloon at me in the mainstream school, the boy was beaten by about 20 other boys! I was able to study more subjects due to the bigger school and wider variety. I didn't get to participate in as many extra curricular things though.

Recently I read an interesting paper about mainstream versus special which drew upon interviews with young people who had been to both. All the young people interviewed were pretty high functioning (all were verbal, they didn't seem to have LD's - in the main they seemed to have conditions such as CP - probably at a moderate level). They said that they enjoyed both their special and mainstream schools. In mainstream the best bit was having friends who were not disabled and being part of their 'regular' peer group. The main disadvantage they identified about mainstream was the lack of encouragement to be independent. Staff did things for them that they were expected to do for themselves at special. And the factor they identified as the main advantage of special school was staff who understood their condition but also pushed them to be independent.

It was an interesting discussion from one small group of the special needs population.

I remember one of my teachers at the mainstream school allowing me to do half of the work/leaving early, etc. These things would have never been allowed at the sn school.

I checked with the school and they said that if there was no one at home the driver should have left ds with the police. I would have rather that than him be left sat on the doorstep. This was pre mobile phones and I did ring the school from a phone box but ds's taxi had already left. The problem was because ds walks independantly they just used to stop and let him get out. They had nearly always gone before I got to the door to let ds in. They probably didn't even know I wasn't at home.
Ds's sn school was very good academically and I know it's rare for sn schools to offer the range of gcse subjects that my ds was able to do. I know they no longer do as if ds was starting school now with his disability he would almost certainly be educated in ms. It is the disaster of further education for young people with sn that worries me. I do think that ds may have faired better in ms accademically and would probably have coped better at 6th form. But the down side would have been a detrimental effect on his physical condition and speech. His is a condition that deteriorates with out physio and I'm sure he wouldn't have got the support he needs in ms. Funding for education in this area is terrible and they would never have had the resources to provide the extra help ds needed.
Dd had a child with challenging behaviour in her class. He needed one to one support but never got it. Consequently because he presented a danger to the other children he had to leave. When they do provide help they don't employ people with any training in specific disabilities so they are little more than glorified babysitters. I used to volunteer at the school and I was given the children who were struggling to work with. I had no teaching experience or training to work with children who find learning challenging yet it was volunteers like me the school was using to help these children.

'When they do provide help they don't employ people with any training in specific disabilities so they are little more than glorified babysitters.'

This was definitely the case for us. DS1 joined. His LSA was sent on ASD training. Then left about 2 weeks later. All the training budget had been spent. In 4 terms he go through six LSA's - none of whom were trained. He is severely autistic, with no speech at all and no-one in the school was PECS trained (the system he uses to communicate). I am, but they wouldn't take advice from me. So I'd turn up. Find them doing something really odd with PECS and I'd have to go home ring the SALT, say 'Look they're doing this". She'd say "oh dear" and would then have to ring them to sort it out or go in.

Not an effective way to educate. And there was such a them and us attitude and they were so defensive it was impossible. His special school are far more welcoming about ideas and communication with parents.

Post school really worries me kiddiz. DS1 really needs some sort of SLD type adult school for the rest of his life. Some private providers are now offering this (such as Coombe House run by the Priory), but it's all residential (which may be appropriate for him by then, so that's not such a problem) but very pricey. And of course you have to force fight for persuade SS to pay for it. The alternatives are crap.

The sn FE college that ds attended is supposed to be one of the better ones yet for the best part of three months they were completely unaware that he hadn't been attending the link out course at our local 6th form college. He had, as a vunerable young person with special needs, been wandering round the city. They had been dropping him off at the 6th form college but not following up on how he was coping. Added to that one of his best friends had died suddenly (he had Duchenes md but it was still very sudden and unexpected) and ds hadn't coped very well with it so I think they should have been taking a bit more care. A friend came to me to ask my opinion as she had been recommended the college for her dd who has moderate learning difficulties. She was concerned about her dd's security. I told her half the time they didn't know whether my ds was there or not, they were still sending transport to pick him up 3 months after he had left so were clearly expecting him but no one qustioned why he wasn't there!

jimjams, I've read similar papers. Children with DS tend to do a lot better overall in m/s, simply because they learn so much by watching their peers and copying. However, at secondary level and socially, the ones who go to special school are better off (only by about 10% I think, but still...). They have more friends and a better social life than their peers at m/s, which isn't surprising really
I do worry about secondary school. At the moment dd2's interests are playing with dolls or the shop, playing tag in the playground or (attempts at) skipping, much like her friends', so there isn't yet a gulf between her and them in that regard. I don't want her to feel isolated at secondary school, but I worry that it may come to that if she doesn't have enough opportunities to mix with other youngsters with SN. I had always envisaged a shared placement for her, but the local PMSN school is due to close/merge with the MLD school (where she attended nursery) and I'm not sure how good a job it will do for children with MLD - it wasn't great when she was there in the first place.

It's at secondary level that the local MLD school becomes completely oversubscribed geekgirl. I do know children who had to get places in there in the final year of primary (and were advised to do so) as there was no way they would be able to cope in ms secondary, but if they waited until secondary there would be no places at all in MLD. There are many children who also need those places who can't access them.

I think at secondary level there are something like 3 Enhanced specialist provision places (a suitable alternative to MLD for some) per year. Hopeless.

do you think it is at secondry level that it all changes? and the gulf becomes more obvious.
the bit about dolls made me smile. dd is 13 and her doll is "real" and I know one blinks at her sn school about it (there is a 19yr old on her bus with a doll) but would that be the same in ms?

but there are a lot of young people with sn who will never be able to do gsce's
dd will never do them or live independatly. so what would be the point of all sn schools offering this. if I felt it was apropriate I would have moved her to a school like trelores that does,

I'm with 2shoes. For the children in ds1's school GCSE's would be a total waste of time. Completely pointless. The children tend to leave on p scales. I'd rather he spent the time going sailing (as he will in secondary).

well dd hasn't got a learning disability. but like a lot of severely disabled young peopleeverything takes a lot longer because of her disability.
of course their are disabled young people that are academically able. and they should be allowed to do all the educational things that nt young people are able to do.
but for a lot of young people exams would just be a waste of resources which would be better used teaching them stuff that they will need.

I haven't read the whole thread.

IME, which is of relatives only, I do not think that children with SN should be in mainstream school as a matter of course.

My opinion comes from seeing, at close hand, just what painfully slow "progress" a child with a mild, but diagnosed, learning difficulty made in mainstream school (and how utterly miserable she was) - and what startling progress she made in another environment that was better adapted to her needs.

You would be really surprised at some of the children who attend an MLD special school. Some of them are very bright, but just have a block in one area. For example speech, hearing or learning to read.

They may not be able to spell their name at 15 years old, but they certainly have the brain power to be naughty! They can use a PC to surf the web for games without a problem.

There is very little provison for girls with severe behaviour difficulties and some of them end up in special schools for children with learning difficulties. When you get to know them you realise that that the reason that they cannot read or write is that they are overwelled by caring responsiblites.

It is hard to learn when you are caring for a parent who suffers from major mental illness. Sometimes children in such a situation get punished for being late for school and not doing their homework when they have done well to get to school in the first place.

In the last five years (ie, since reception) my daughter has:

been sexually assaulted (not seriously, thank goodness)
had scissors thrown at her and her classmates
had her work and her classmates' destroyed
been sworn at and introduced to some explicit sexual details.

by three children with SN who obviously should have been somewhere else.

The school has lost pupils because parents won't send their children there or have moved them. They've gone now and I can't tell you how happy I was that they went. For their sakes' as much as for everyone elses'.

IMHO, more not fewer children need special schools. And I do accept that these are extreme cases and other SN children may be far, far less disruptive. We have the most gorgeous little boy with autism in Year 2 at the moment and he brings out the best in the children.

to quote our senco ( not to me, the bitch has moved on to a more vulnerable target who was a bad choice as we have become friends )

'statents are vfor children who really shouldn't be in ms education'

with attitudes like that special schools suddenly look rather attractive....

parents almost always know their kids best, they should get the main say

bridie the kid with the scissors could well be my ds1

i only wish there were other options, i dread the day he really hurts someone and ends up suffering for a complete lack of appropriate suport

funny you should say that Peachy, when i first applied for an assessment for a statement for DS the SENA case worker (who is now head of SENA in our county!) actually wrote in his reasons for refusal to assess that STATEMENTS ARE FOR CHILDREN IN SPECIAL SCHOOLS ONLY!!! That comment went down like a lead balloon with SENDIST at our appeal which we won and now have the 32.5 enhanced package statement!!!

(altho ds3 in contrast has improved wonderfully with appropriate ms schooling, aganst our expectations, and is adored by all)

many people in the admin side of statenting seem unable to read the guidelines

iour senco being interviewed for dep head next week (God help us) and other family met with governors today ., as dd i and one other family

do these people think we dont talk?