To think that children with special needs should be included in mainstream schools where ever possible

[ReallyTired]

Before I get really stoned, I do work in a special school and I know and I know quite a few children with special needs. The school I work at is very good and the kids make fanastic progress.

I think its right that there are some special schools, for children who really cannot cope socially or academically with mainstream. Even then I think children at special schools/ special units should mix with mainstream children as much as possible.
However I think its a mistake to think that special schools are a pancera for everything wrong in state state education.

Children who attend special schools often spend quite a long time travelling to school. Their course choices at keystage 4 are often limited because a special school is very small. The very small number of children can make it hard to find a good friend. Especially for girls who are often out numbered by boys.

I think that for inclusion to work there has to be more than just extra funding. Secondary schools need to be smaller. Somehow schools need to achieve a more human scale, prehaps by splitting larger secondary schools into smaller units. Maybe we should have middle schools like Bedfordshire.

There are children like young carers or children in local authority care who get forgotten about. When you get to know an individual child you realise that they aren't a monster, in fact they are just like your child. Inclusion needs money and resources to work well.

They have a plan here to close the 2SLD/PMLD schools, open some stupid massive learning academy which would include outreach units for the 2 SLD schools then have the remaining kids who can't access that in a '21st century special school'

My problems with that are

1. what happens to all the specialist equipment- such as sand and splash that I keep banging on about- but it's a great resource, and hydro? Are they going to put those at the learning academy and if so are they going to restrict their use to the special school kids or are they going to suddenly have to share facilities with 2000 people rather than 100?

2. the schools that they're talking about merging are very different schools with very different populations. And the schools have totally different philosophies. How are such diverse needs going to be met?

Mind you the learning academy they're meant to be merging with is one of the ones threatened with closure for crap GCSE results.

In fact the biggest issue I have with inclusion is the fact that it tends to lead to children like ds1 being excluded.

Take holiday playschemes. Special playschemes were shut down in favour of an inclusive one (your child would go to mainstream playscheme with a support worker). But ds1 can't access mainstream playschemes support worker or not - so for the last however many years there hasn't been a single playscheme in the city he could access.

This has now changed and they have finally opened a playscheme for children with his level of need. Held on the site of an SLD school it takes 8 children a day, all with 1:1. It is perfect for ds1. He went last Easter and loved it. But only 8 spaces a day. They need so many more.

it sounds like a nightmare of bureaucracy expat. But you sound strong and determined to get what is best for your dd.

the sad thing is our school would like to support everyone, it's a comfy, friendly little school with really excellent social events but academically...
in ds's class, there are 26 children, yr 2 +3, they range from just 6 to nearly 9 with a sats range from no where near W to 4A...I mean how can 1 teacher and an occasional TA successfully teach that range..

also inclusion in m/s of kids with significant SN (i.e. who require a lot of 1-1 hours) can be very reliant on individual TAs. Who may or may not have training in the particular SN that a kid has.

Not read the thread, will go back and read but surely it depends on the child's individuality.

My child has sotos syndrome (genetic condition causing overgrowth and delayed development - watching Gigantism on Virgin now - but not touched on Sotos ) and she goes to mainstream - currently in year 1. Has no behaviourial issues, mainly delayed development - although in the last year has come on leaps and bounds. Has 1-2-1 help but her 1-2-1 sometimes helps other children if my DD is able to manage whatever lesson she is taking part in.

MS school has helped her undoubtedly - I always said that if MS was not right for her, then I would change to special school but needed to try MS first and, for my DD, it was the right choice.

She does everything that every other child her age does.

Although she is tall for her age (wears 7-8 clothes, is only 6) she is not the tallest in her class - thankfully - and because me and her dad are not overly tall - she is estimated to be about 5'10" when fully grown - tall for our family but not a giant

Watching this programme on telly right now, they are talking about other growth conditions - primarily pituatiary(?) gland problems which my DD does not have.

hi bumblelion, haven't seen you for ages

how are you?

I'm pretty sure that when I was at school some 30 years ago, we had special classes for kids with special educational needs or behavioural issues. They had some classes with us and other classes in the special unit. They mixed with us at playtime of course.

The special classes were in a different building but close to the main school. I don't remember anyone with special physical needs, I guess they were not mainstreamed at all then.

I think our state system often lets SN kids down, either by mainstreaming them without extra help so that they get further behind and often become worse behaved than they otherwise would have been; or by segregating them.

But isn't it also a bit like the boarding school debate? - some kids would rather be in a SN school, even if it's not what the parents think is ideal; and some would rather be in mainstream - should the kids be allowed to choose (if they have the option? which they often don't because of lack of state funding)

I don't think there is one right way for everyone.

Bundle, am very well, thank you for asking. Youngest DD is doing fantastically - the growth has slowed down and the delayed development is catching up - but, unfortunately, having issues with eldest DD (now 15 years, 7 months). Been with her boyfriend (first) for 9 months(!) and he broke up with her last Wednesday - she is absolutely heart-broken and I wish I could take her pain to make her feel better. The only nice thing is that she is not shutting me out and is talking to me about her feelings and letting me hug her, tell her she is beautiful, etc.

Oh well, if it isn't one thing, it is another!

I don't see ds1's special school as segregating him. It's very much the environment I expect him to live out his life tbh. He's with his peer group. He's not remotely isolated. He enjoys it. He is given opportunities to do things he would never have been allowed to do at mainstream.

I find the description of it as segregation quite strange as in his case it's the total opposite. He was completely isolated and segregated at mainstream. Now he's a fully functioning member of a community.

one school I looked round (and DS has relatively mild SN), seemed to deal with pupils with SN by hiving them off into small groups in a separate room with the TA. The teacher that showed me round was absolutely gormless and clueless about the sort of support given to kids with language problems - as apparently that was the TA's job . Didn't sound like that school were particularly inclusive to me. Granted that may have been a particularly unfortunate "snapshot" I got - but it was sufficient to put me off the school.

oh the poor, poor love!
there was something on this (family Guardian on Sat?) the other week - and it brought all the pain and angst of being a teen back. I bet you're being a rock!

glad youngest dd is doing well, great that mainstream suits her. i think you're right, it's all about each individual child. a teacher friend has a profoundly disabled child in her mainstream class and she feels sad that he seems to get so little out of the day (I think he has gdd as well as being profoundly deaf and i think blind)fitting in around the rest of the class - even though he obv has 1-2-1 support

I think it is all down to the individual child. I never had a problem with my youngest DD may be having to go to special school if that was the right thing for her, but because of her 'special needs' the educational psychologist thought that MS was right for her. At the moment it seems to be, but if ever it became clear that she was struggling and it was not the best place for her, then I would have no issues about changing her school.

When I say it is down to individuality, I mean that my DD has Sotos and every professional (except geneticist who diagnosed her) I have met have not heard of the syndrome and I have to explain it to them - the good and the bad! I sometimes think that I know more than the professionals - especially when she was younger and seeing lot of 'specialists' - but I have never hidden the fact that she has sotos and this makes her 'special' in the same way that my other 2 children are also 'special', i.e. it just makes her a little bit unique, but my favourite word is 'bizarre' and who is to say what is 'bizarre' for one person is normal to another.

Bundle - unfortunately my eldest DD seems to have been neglected (in a mother/daughter sense) in the past due to my circumstances- she has a younger brother, now 11, and then Sasha came along with all her various appointments. What with me splitting with their dad when Sasha was 11 weeks old, I found it hard to find the time to do that special mother/daughter thing with 2 other children, and one of them having so many different specialist appointments and me also working part-time to pay for the roof over our head.

I hope, and I do believe, that I have not ruined our relationship (eldest DD and me) and I have been trying, for the last year or so, to find time for us to do girly things together. Sometimes she doesn't go to her dads with the other 2 at the weeken and we go shopping and then to Nando's (her favourite).

Took her shopping last Sunday, just her and me, having a lovely time but then she got a text from a friend confirming that her ex-boyfriend has got a new girlfriend. My DD just wanted to come home but was conscious that she was cutting short our 'time togethe' but she wanted to be at home. I told her it was fine - I wanted to go to the cemetery (father's day) and just told her that it was fine to go home, it saved me money and meant I could take some flowers for my dad.

Perhaps I should carry on the talk under 'teenagers' - never chatted there before because I never had any issues before - but never, say never.

Just caught up with this thread and I thought Persil made a good point further down about the 'human factor' and the attitudes of the staff. When we first started looking at schools for ds we looked at all the options including ms. I don't think we'd quite accepted that he wouldn't be going off to school with his big sister, in a little matching uniform . Anyway, the difference in the way we were treated when we visited schools (with ds in tow) couldn't have been more obvious. Mainstream woman made it clear from the start that ds would be a 'problem' and reluctantly gave us a brief tour. The special schools' staff were so welcoming and delighted to meet ds that there was really no decision to make.

Another point that comes to mind is a conversation that I had with ds's headmaster. We were chatting about how well some children with sn can do in mainstream as I knew a couple of little girls with downs who were very happy. The headmaster surprised me by explaining that yes it was great news but unfortunately he expected to see quite a few of those children in his school later down the line and he would have to deal with the problems caused by their mainstream experience. Often by the time it was admitted that the children really weren't coping they had poor self-esteem from always being the 'slowest', had experienced bullying and developed behavioural problems as a result. My suggestion was that perhaps more funding for 1:1 would help them cope. He said that in most cases this was true but for other children it caused more problems, marking them out as 'different', affecting the development of their independence and often making them generally unpleasant as they were used to always being the centre of attention.
Now he wasn't just being a pessimist (he's not like that at all, he's a very cheerful, friendly person) he was just telling me his experience. FWIW, the school has very strong links with a nearby ms school and the children are integrated whenever possible but only when the time is right. Ds now enjoys his ms PE lessons but it has been a long process to get to this point.

The majority of children with statements do not have severe or profound learning difficulties. A lot of children with statements have no major disablites.

There are some children who could not cope with mainstream due to health and safety as well as educational issues. However that is a very tiny proportion of children with statements.

Children with moderate learning difficulties often do well in mainstream schools, provided that they have the social skills to cope.

Our MLD school is the one that is completely oversubscribed with parents begging for places because their children are doing so badly in mainstream. People wait years for a place there.

The problem with inclusion policies is that it can adversely affect the SLD/PMLD population for reasons I've outlined earlier (resources being diverted from special to inclusion- so the ones who can't be included get left with bugger all).

getbackinyouryurtjimjams - apologies if "segregation" offended. My mum used to be a local councillor some years ago and was on the various education committees, and that was the word in vogue then, as in those who were for inclusion called non-inclusion segregation - I have to admit I have terrible trouble keeping up with the current (constantly changing) terminology.

Mum had similar thoughts as the headmaster in Pixel's post as she had heard the same thing from lots of headteachers and other professionals.

No it didn't offend. I was thinking aloud really. I just think that sometimes without experience people have very little understanding of what it means to have SLDs and PMLDs. They can kind of understand MLD's - but the very specific needs of children/adults with SLD's/PMLDS is poorly understood as the needs are so far from the average.

Any time something becomes inclusive ds1 can't access it. He needs something to be segregated to even give him a hope of access. This is something that I think a lot of policy makers completely fail to grasp.

I seem to remember Roz Blackburn saying the same. She said she could only access stuff that was aimed at the PMLD population as she needed that level of support. DS1 is the same. Open it up to all, make it inclusive and you actually bar the most disabled in society.

I agree with pixel as well. And one professional (who worked with ds1 a lot at home before he went into ms) urged us to get him out because he was developing a whole host of behaviours she saw as unecessary and as arising because of very poor management. Luckily he'd only spent 4 terms in ms school (and lots of that was part time at his excellent ms nursery) so it didn't need too much unpicking, but they did have some left over behaviours to deal with.

My ds who will be 20 next month went to a sn school. He started in the nursery class when he was 3. I was never given a choice about his education. He was statemented when he was 2 and I was given a list of sn schools to visit and that was that. He has a physical disability and also some related speech and hearing difficulties. He has Arthrogryposis and had a cleft palate.
I have often wondered if he might have faired better in ms. He did ok at sn school. He gained 8 gcses, 7 over grade c which condidering the limited availability of subjects was good. Having said that I'm sure he received a lot more "help" with them than he would have done at mainstream. More importantly he seemed happy there up until about age 14/15, when he, surprisingly given his own sn, developed a marked lack of tolerance for his less able peers. It also meant he had access to the physio and speech therapy he needed which may not have been the case in ms.
The problems for him really started in further ed. He was persuaded to attend the sn F.E. college and link out on an GNVQ IT course at the local ms 6th form college. He found the adjustment to a ms college with 1500+ students impossible. He had been in a class of 9 and very cocooned and protected. He found the huge number of students and the lack of structured supervision very hard. No one cared if he didn't turn up, so he didn't. He fell in the void between the 2 colleges..each thought he was attending the other, neither bothered to check. He has since unsuccessfully tried three times to complete a course at ms 6th form and was finally asked to leave in January this year. He flatly refused to go back to the sn college and is now at home claiming benefits with no ambition or motivation to do anything. I can't say I blame him for not wanting to return to the sn college. The sn school he attended was good but the college or more specifically the head tutor was poor.

Another point on transport. We don't actually live that far from the school, but ds at age 3 was picked up by taxi at 7.45 am and it was regularly nearly 5.00 pm when he got home. One day when it snowed he got in at 7.30 pm. The 1st taxi he had was an ancient Vauxhall Viva with fixed seat belts in the back. I went out with ds's car seat to be told they couldn't fit it in but it was ok he could sit on the escort's knee with the belt round the 2 of them . I refused to send Ds to school that first day and then I took dh to work so I could have the car to take him until they sorted out proper transport. I can't beleive the council gave that taxi firm the contract using that car. Driver actually told me they'd been doing it that way for ages. They were carrying 4 children and the driver and escort in a car with 2 fixed belts in the back fgs and apparantly that was ok with the transport dept at the LEA.

The seat belt rules etc have been really tightened up. That sort of thing wouldn't happen now.

Still big problems with post school. DS1 would currently be expected to go to 6th form college at 17. Some children stay until 19 but usually that the kids with PMLD's. They'll have to improve it a lot before I would let him go to the local CFE. Have heard of so many problems.

Still true that it's far easier to access physio/ SALT/music theraoy/riding for the disabled etc if you're at special school.

Sorry about long rant about transport. We had some wierd and wonderful escorts and drivers over the years. One worrying escort used to keep buying ds presents and asked for a lock of his hair.
One driver called round to ask if the Police had been in touch as he thought a member of the public may have reported him for dangling ds over a canal bridge as a joke on the way home from school.
Another time my car broke down and I got home late to find ds on the doorstep. The taxi driver and escort had just left him even though there was no one at home. Luckily I was only a few minutes late

You're right getbackinyouryurtjimjams this was a while ago and I'm sure things have improved. We also had some very good and kind transport staff including the bridge dangling driver...it really wasn't as bad as it sounds.

OMG! Our driver and escorts are lovely. Hilarious- they really get the day off to a good start - the driver is usually ranting about Gordon Brown- but I don't think they'd engage in bridge dangling.

We're threatened with the police station (for ds1) is we're not there when he gets home. Luckily I think mobile phones have made life a bit easier on that front....

reading riven's post makes me realise how lucky I am. dd has all the hustle and bustle in her sn school. I have to say things have improved greatly since she moved up to secondry and the babying stopped.
we have had a couple of shit escourts(the one she has now is as much use as a chocolate teapot but the driver makes up for it)and travel time is about an hor(16 miles) the bus is all wheelchairs and very energetic. you can hear the music before you see the bus.