To think that children with special needs should be included in mainstream schools where ever possible

[ReallyTired]

Before I get really stoned, I do work in a special school and I know and I know quite a few children with special needs. The school I work at is very good and the kids make fanastic progress.

I think its right that there are some special schools, for children who really cannot cope socially or academically with mainstream. Even then I think children at special schools/ special units should mix with mainstream children as much as possible.
However I think its a mistake to think that special schools are a pancera for everything wrong in state state education.

Children who attend special schools often spend quite a long time travelling to school. Their course choices at keystage 4 are often limited because a special school is very small. The very small number of children can make it hard to find a good friend. Especially for girls who are often out numbered by boys.

I think that for inclusion to work there has to be more than just extra funding. Secondary schools need to be smaller. Somehow schools need to achieve a more human scale, prehaps by splitting larger secondary schools into smaller units. Maybe we should have middle schools like Bedfordshire.

There are children like young carers or children in local authority care who get forgotten about. When you get to know an individual child you realise that they aren't a monster, in fact they are just like your child. Inclusion needs money and resources to work well.

There are quite a few children at DSs primary school who are diagnosed as being on the autistic/aspergers spectrum as well as a child with DS. They all have brothers and sisters at the school and I think this is really important for them to go to the same school. The other children are'learning' about disability at a time in their lives when attitudes are shaped. There is a very positive feeling from staff and other parents about these children. I don't think inclusive education is about political correctness. It's about wanting the best for all children and respecting that every child is unique.

I am strongly in favour of mainstreaming, if the parents think it is for the best for their child. I was fuming last year to hear one of the mums in DS class saying that kids with SN 'like that' shouldn't be in normal schools! (the child she was talking about has DS) i still can't look at the ignorant person who said that, how would she feel if that was her son. The little boy who has Downs is in DS class as are several other kids with various SN. I think it really enriches the school and certainly the children learn acceptance. I think academic acheivement is important but also is being with a diverse range of people, school is for kids, ALL kids.

see that is what i don't like children "learning" because their dc has a child with sn in their school.
imo children with sn are not there to "teach" other people. their needs come first.

I think it can be beneficial for siblings to go to different schools. If ds2 and ds3 were at the same school as ds1 they would hear him shrieking every day (he can be very loud). His utterly bizarre behaviours would be there for every one to see (who wants an older brother who sniffs bottoms in the same school??? ). And there are always kids in a school who are going to choose that sort of thing to bully about.

This way ds2 and ds3 can have their own space to be who they are, not just the brother of the child who can't talk. And they can choose not to bring home children who can't cope with it.

oh jimjams I agree about space. ds needs time away from dd. if they were in the same school. i imagine he would be called upon on may occasions to help out.

I think it comes down to the school then and Jellybeans I'm very jealous of yours. I had to visit a ms school in Battersea not that long ago and OMG it was fantastic! They had such a range of dc's and abilities but they had the funding! There was a ds dc in every class with a 121, I have never seen so many TA's/parent helpers..I was nearly spitting envy. Our school, is a tiny village school, they are struggling to keep 4 teachers for 6 yrs because they don't have the intake, never mind a 121 or TA. It's so poor that I'm moving my own ds;'s 1 of which has very mild sn and 1 is G&T, because they just cannot support anyone outside of "normal". It makes me sad that children just cannot expect a decent education in their local school.
That's exactly what this boy needs jimjam.... the mother is going to have a huge battle to get it though

Yes I agree 2shoes.

THere was an older kid in ds1's ms school who summed it up though. After ds1 had left he asked his mum (who I know) whether ds1 had changed schools, so she said yes and explained where he'd gone.

"Good" he said very firmly. His mum was a bit surprised as he's a nice kid so asked him what he meant and he said

"every time I saw him he was standing alone in the playground with a helper crying and I don't think he was very happy and it made me sad. I hope he will be much happier at his new school".

I think he perhaps didn't need to be taught anything.....

True about the helping out 2shoes. When ds1 was in ms and they were stuck and didn't dare let him near the NT kids they teamed him up with someone with a severely autistic sibling. Which I thought very unfair tbh. And it has happened to my friend's ds in a different school as well. These siblings need a break.

"Children who attend special schools often spend quite a long time travelling to school"

This is directly due to the inclusion policy which means that a lot of special schools and units have closed. For a lot of children this policy has caused additional problems. As previous posters have said some children are best served by being in an environment which can fully cater to their needs.

Ok, NO NO and NO again.

I work as an LSA in a secondary school. There are some students there with special needs who undoubtedly benefit from a mainstream school, it teaches the other students about acceptance and it helps the student with SN to feel a part of society.

However there are some who do not belong there. We have students who cannot even go to the toilet by themselves, who cannot read and write. They are in English classes studying Shakespeare and the only contribution they can make is to colour in a picture of William Shakespeare. More often than not they are put in bottom sets of classes, the bottom sets also get all the kids with behavioural problems - so what are these kids with SN learning? They are learning how to misbehave. Because most kids with SN copy what they see around them.

IMO they should be learning life skills, skills that will enable them perhaps to lead a more independent life, such as toileting themselves, making cups of tea, sandwiches, going to the shops. They shouldn't be sat in a very difficult class colouring in pictures.

"IMO they should be learning life skills, skills that will enable them perhaps to lead a more independent life, such as toileting themselves, making cups of tea, sandwiches, going to the shops. They shouldn't be sat in a very difficult class colouring in pictures."

Exactly Rhubarb.

Well said Rhubarb...

I think it depends.

If I?m brutally honest I think inclusion isn?t for everyone, and I think that no child with sn should be made to go to ms school.

Every child is different of course, but I think that at the point where a child is doing totally different work, is isolated from the other children and is not progressing or making friends then questions need to be asked as to whether ms really is the right choice.

I also think that as children grow older and differences become more apparent, it is more important for all children to be with their peers, and for a child who has severe learning difficulties, their peers are generally not the rest of the class. Surely it is better for a group of children, all with the same ability levels, to be able to interact with one another, to be educated in a setting where they can all just be themselves without their sn constantly needing to be highlighted to the rest of their class? Where friendship is just that, children/parents who have no understanding? And where no-one judges because everyone is the same?

With the best will in the world, a child with severe learning difficulties is not generally going to make many meaningful friendships in all about poms school. Not because there?s anything wrong with having severe learning difficulties, but because kids are bloody cruel, and generally, although some children do accept, many do not accept such severe difference.

Isn?t it better for a child to go to a school where everyone knows and no-one has to be educated before they are willing and able to accept that child?

dd has cp she is severely disabled. at her school she is considered bright. she is one of the more able pupils. all the staff know her and most of the pupils. she is on the school council.
now tell me how she could do these things in ms. when her means of communication is eye pointing"some speech" and her communication book?
also don't forget the support we get from the school. problems how ever small. there is always someone to help.
ms no way. ds was bullied(oh they loved to use the spaz word) the ms school di nothing.

'It's so poor that I'm moving my own ds;'s 1 of which has very mild sn and 1 is G&T, because they just cannot support anyone outside of "normal". It makes me sad that children just cannot expect a decent education in their local school.'

Ours doesn't even want to entertain the thought of supporting anyone outside of 'normal'.

"i don't like children "learning" because their dc has a child with sn in their school."

I completely agree, children with special needs are not creatures in a zoo. But many people with major special needs are capable of GCSE, A-levels or even getting a degree.

In an ideal world special schools would have closer links with mainstream schools. Children at both type of school stand to benefit.

A lot depends on the special need. The 2020 campaign is a group of disabled people who feel that they were short changed by being sent to special schools.

2020campaign.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/page1.html

"And there are always kids in a school who are going to choose that sort of thing to bully about."

Unfortunately bullying exists in every school in the land including special schools.

I agree kids (or adults) with SN aren't there as learning tools - it's not their role to suffer in a bad environment just to teach tolerance.

But I do think I got a lot from being in (junior) schools with children with SN (and knowing adults with SN too). It was only as I grew up that I realised a lot of NT/non-disabled people were prejudiced.

There really isn't any bullying at ds1's SLD/PMLD school. Have you been in an SLD/PMLD school? How do kids who are non-verbal bully?

"And there are always kids in a school who are going to choose that sort of thing to bully about."

This quote was about NT ds2 and ds3 being bullied if ds1 was in the same school as them and about the space they're afforded by being in different schools.

That's just terrible expat! What are you going to do?

(Not trying to sound preachy or claiming I have no prejudices at all ever, btw, just I never had that almost knee-jerk reaction of cruelty/dislike that some people have towards those with SN.)

the plan so far is to hold her back a year, put her in a private nursery with an SEN unit attached.

after that, we're moving.

but i'm still on the fence with regards to that, because legally, the school has to take her. that's the law. my part of the deal is to send her or prove to the council that i am providing adequate alternative education. their part of the deal is to do the educating and get the support in to do it.

but i don't want her with that narrow-minded excuse of a teacher who just finds her an annoyance because she's stuck with a composite class.

that's not my lookout if she is dissatisfied with that.

the law's on DD1's side.

dd has never been bullied in her sn school
ds has in his ms school and he has had to put up with idiots calling his dd a spaz.

fab post Wannabe. Exactly the sort of issues I'm concerned about with DS. At the moment he is managing surprisingly well in m/s nursery with little support - but I want to keep a close eye on things, particularly re:transition to year in Sept 09, in case a language unit would be more appropriate.

oh, the educational authority has to approve funding for her extra year, of course.

the ed psych is putting the case forward.

there are just six weeks between end of term and start of the new academic year to make these decisions.

because it was assumed she was ready for MS education at that school.

was only monday at the pre-SCAT meeting that that all went to seed with the head and the teacher.