Will antisemitism ever be looked at and dealt with in the same way as Islamophobia is?

[LucyWestenra]

AIBU for thinking it won’t? Because it doesn’t seem to be the case in this country or my home country (Germany).

(I just googled because it didn’t seem right to have antisemitism in lower capitals, but apparently that is correct, as I thought)

Much love to the Jewish community, wherever they are.

❤️

Not at all, as I said earlier you can conduct a war without committing war crimes. That’s my issue with the Israeli governments response.

Can you give an example of a war which has been conducted without war crimes? Obviously war crimes are wrong and we should strive to avoid them and seek accountability when they do happen. But realistically, has any conflict been waged without any?

I’ve never conducted a war and, I presume, nor have you, but I’m fairly sure there has never been a war without war crimes.

So that’s not the point here - unless you’re holding Israel to a different standard than the UK in Iraq and Afghanistan or the US in Vietnam etc.

The fact of war crimes happening is not a post hoc justification for Oct 7th, so they don’t make the invasion of Gaza inherently wrong. Even if war crimes were committed during the invasion.

So we should scrap the rules of war then? Do away with any guidelines and just people have at it.

Why would you think I’m holding them to a different standard? We’ve not discussed any other wars. I was disgusted with some of the UKs actions in Iraq & Afghanistan. I’m not sure there was a finding that they pursued war crimes as a policy though.

I’m not using Israel’s war crimes as a post hoc justification for anything. Thats nothing like what I’ve said. In case you missed it - I think the attack on October 7th was horrific. End of. I don’t think it’s correct for a sovereign country to respond with collective punishment though and that’s where we obviously differ - which is fine, you’re entitled to a view that’s not the same as mine but don’t use my view to insinuate I’ve said or thought something that I haven’t.

Yes. I happened across the footage of the lynching of two IDF soldiers in Ramallah by a 1000 strong mob of Palestinians. The two young men were literally ripped to pieces and their entrails held up by men with blood dripping from their hands.

Some protestors today display red hand signs said to be a reference to that horrific event.

Hamas were voted in by Palestinians in 2006. I would like to know more about the dynamic between the Hamas government and the Palestinian people, why they were voted in and how it has gone since then.

Hamas did win the last election in 2006 with a vote share of around 45%. As far as I understand, lots of Palestinians weren’t necessarily voting for Hamas’s ideology, but against Fatah, who were seen as corrupt & ineffective. Hamas campaigned on anti-corruption, social welfare & resistance which obviously resonated with Palestinians at the time.

Obviously there haven’t been national elections since 2006 so the majority of the population haven’t had the chance to vote for or against Hamas at all.

There are definitely Palestinians who still support them, with lots agreeing with their stance against Israel and their social policies. But then others are critical of their authoritarianism and the consequences of ongoing conflict. Given the restriction on dissent in Gaza, it’s likely we’ll never really know how the people in Gaza truly feel about Hamas.

I don’t think it’s correct for a sovereign country to respond with collective punishment though

Is this definitely intended as a collective punishment though? Hamas deliberately built infrastructure designed to use civilians as human shields. They built military facilities under schools and hospitals. They have knowingly caused civilian locations to be a target. I’m also not saying it isn’t a collective punishment (I just don’t know enough) but is the Palestinian support for Hamas a factor in that? How defined is the line between the Hamas government and its citizens?

I obviously don’t condone deliberate targeting of civilians but we have to ask what actions would be acceptable to Israel’s detractors in order to defend themselves and try and stop Hamas? If not stopped, Hamas and the other terrorist groups backed by Iran have said that their mission is to obliterate Israel and all Jews. How do we want the Jews to fight for their existence?

Thank you for your thoughts on this - it is nice to be able to have a calm conversation and hear your views on this extremely complex and emotive topic.

I do not like or approve anything Israel is currently doing. But at the same time, I think there must be a balance. I prefer Israel as a democracy, and don't have any sympathy for an Islamist POV. I have quite strong views on this point, but I don't think it makes me racist

An election in 2006 is now 20 years ago!

Surely, it's time for another vote! Israel is a better place to live than most of the Third World. A person can be gay or divorced without much fear. Fat chance of that in Iran.

That's medieval.

There is so much of Israel bad and Palestine poor oppressed innocents. No one is Hamas in Gaza.

Hamas have done the people of Gaza no favours and if the terrorist attack of October 7th hadn't occurred this latest conflict wouldn't have been, but hey ho, they have no agency, so no blame, and obviously whatever their 'freedom fighters' do is excusable.

Maybe their governance Hamas should have had an election in the years following 2006.. why didn't they?

Of course elections were due, but Hamas knew they would lose so the election was not held. Hamas continued in office. I feel very sorry for the Palestinians, but IMO they have not helped themselves. I also don't like Israel's politics, but it is safe to be gay or opposed to the mainstream in Israel and it's not in neighbouring countries.

What a bizarre take. That kind of talk doesn’t really help anyone. It’s an argument no one but you is having. Certainly no one here has said that whatever hamas does is excusable?

There hasn’t been a unified Palestinian political system since the Hamas/Fatah split. Theres been several planned elections, all of which have failed either because of that split or the ongoing conflicts over the past two decades.

Just to be clear, Hamas' stance against israel is no peace deal and no Israel. Thats why they blew up buses in israel in the 90s - to prevent any peace deals.

Its true that hamas won one election and then there were no more so most Gazans alive wouldn't have been the ones voting for them but they do have (or at least have had) a lot of popular support.

Interesting that you don't mention anywhere that hamas is an extremist religious organization whose social policies are Islamist policies such as forcing women to wear hijab.

Yes, tbf, no elections in fatah controlled west bank either. Because hamas would win....

Its not just safe rto be gay or in opposition, its much safer to be a minority. Look at what's happening to the druze in Syria versus the druze in israel.

Just to be clear, I’m well aware of Hamas’ stance on Israel.

Whats interesting about me not referring to them as an extremist religious organisation? I presume everyone on this thread would know that already? Do I also need to explain who Israel are for people? A poster expressed an interest in the elections and the relationship between the general Palestinian population & Hamas - on which I had a touch of knowledge due to having researched it myself during the last few months, so I responded.

oh sorry, I missed the hijab comment, there’s certainly no law in Gaza enforcing the hijab at present. There are plenty of women existing there that don’t wear it. It’s not policed like it is in Iran.

Oh and @balabusta when I said they campaigned on social policies - I meant those like financial support for poor families, windows and orphans, improving healthcare & investing in schools and universities.

am I saying they achieved it/were honest? No. I have no knowledge in that area to be honest, but that’s what they set out and people were desperate for change from Fatah, which is inevitably how elections are won anywhere isnt it when a country isn’t having a good time…see also the Nazi party

It's disingenuous to leave out that people were voting for an Islamic extremist party. This is their key defining characteristic.

Its true that three is now law enforcing hijab because they don't need it (unlike iran). In gaza, itd be a brave Muslim woman who wouldn't wear a hijab these days given the intimidation she'd face . Social policies don't necessarily mean enforcement by law.

And I can tell you that, no, they didn't achieve their aims. All the money that could have gone to supporting poor widows went to building tunnels and buying arms to attack israel. Plus the billionaire lifestyles of the leadership in Qatar.

Whether they achieved their aims or not doesn’t really have any affect on why people voted did it? They were desperate for change and were under a useless government at the time.

Just like the people in Germany voting in the Nazis becuase they were fed up of life under life under the Weimar Republic. People weren’t voting based on what we now know would happen, they were reacting to their situation at the time.

It’s not disingenuous becuase I’m assuming anyone engaging in this discussion is aware of Hamas and who they are. The conversation was about the election and why people voted. Of course some will have voted because they agreed with their stance on religion & Israel, but not everyone will have and some will have voted for them in
spite of it.

I’m really not convinced you’re engaged enough with life in Gaza to know whether you’d need to be brave to be a non hijab wearer. There are plenty of female Gazan journalists who don’t wear hijab and have very public profiles.

Muslim women do not go out witjou4 hijab in Gaza other than a brave few. One or two journalists recording videos for social media without a hijab is in no way representative.

I appreciate some Gazans just wanted change from Fatah. Some were seduced by Hamas' promises. Most still believe in Hamas' aim to destroy israel - you know, this promise that has caused immeasurable damage to Palestinians for the last 80 odd years.

I didn’t say it’s representative. But they are doing it without consequence and they certainly wouldn’t be doing the same in Iran.

You might well be right that most believe in it (although ‘still’ would be misleading given that most wouldn’t have voted back in 2006) but where do you get your evidence for that, given that no independent journalists have been allowed and as far as I can tell they haven’t all been asked 🤷🏻‍♀️