AIBU to think it was never that complicated to define a woman.

[Abisequer]

The International Olympic Committee (IOC) has ruled that eligibility for the women’s category of Olympic events will now be limited to biological females, starting from the LA 2028 Games.

AIBU to think the category ‘women’ was never complicated and the obfuscation by certain governing bodies has compromised fairness in sport for women.

Examples of obfuscation include claims that genital checking would be needed or that biological men with lowered testosterone would be on an even playing field with biological women.

AIBU to think it was never complicated to define a woman and a cheek swab is all it takes.

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So you think the existence of incredibly rare disorders means the definitions of sex organs should change? A uterus is an organ that a male or a female can have. Is that correct? Because that means any male can have a uterus by your definition.

Or is it more appropriate and sensible to say the uterus, cervix and vagina are female sex organs and some incredibly rare conditions are harder to categorise?

They are female sex organs.

In rare cases of development disorders, they can be present (and may have some functionality) in genetic males.

That does not validate gender ideology.

20 years ago, in 2006 people still knew a that 24 year old women should have had a period 🙄. Scans, hormone assays, chromosomal and some gene analysis was readily available.

You don’t need “sexual education” to appreciate that a 24 year old woman should have commenced menstruation.

Even people born into poor, rural communities know about periods.

Again, we are talking against the backdrop of the then-prevalent normalization of the loss of periods among female athletes, and a cultures where speaking about menstruation remained largely taboo.

But keep kidding yourself that developing countries have always supported women's athletics, afforded them a passable level of healthcare support and ensured the availability of specialist medical personnel and equipment.

I'm happy to believe that the 1000s of females in the studies posted are responding honestly as to the abysmal care provided, and that it may result in the occasional innocently mistaken males with DSDs.

You'd rather call 1000s of females liars than admit that a solitary male with a rare condition, in life circumstances you know nothing about, could possibly be telling the truth about surprise at their diagnosis.

Covered. Endlessly.

Santhi, when competing and presenting as a woman.

But there is a big difference between the uterus in those incredibly rare disorders and the pouch in 5 alpha reductase deficiency which are anatomically, morphologically and functionally very different. The pouch does not remotely function like a vagina. It must be fairly obvious it can’t possibly function like a vagina, isn’t it?

But keep kidding yourself that developing countries have always supported women's athletics, afforded them a passable level of healthcare support and ensured the availability of specialist medical personnel and equipment.

Keep kidding yourself that females struggling with menstrual care in developing countries means the male looking person with the male musculature, the deep voice, the Adam’s Apple, no breast development, and outstanding athletic performance compared to females would somehow go unnoticed among this mass of poorly treated women.

And yet I, and most others, remain unconvinced by your arguments. Even poor people, women who train hard, people training in the 2000s 😀 know about periods and when they should come.

It’s odd how bizarrely incurious Santhi’s team were about it all, even with that impressive male brow ridge and Adam’s apple.

Snap with notbad.

And - again - people with partial AIS could have, during/after puberty

• normal breast development;
• musculoskeletal development far more in line with typical female puberty than male;
• might have no deepening, or only mild deepening, of their voice

Where it is partial, though, there will be something not typically female (perhaps lengthening of the clitories).

Males with Complete AIS will experience puberty as if they were a typical female, save only for the lack of a period.

You know women have Adam's apples, right? They are generally far less prominent than in males but most prominent when there is very low body fat (and Santhi, clearly, had very little body fat).

And, yet again - yes, poor people in developing countries know when periods generally start. If, though, they are an athlete and are wrongly told that its fine and normal for them not to have had a period (due to the then prevalent myth), why would they not accept that?

75-80% of the cases found by World Athletics had 5 alpha reductase deficiency. That means the vast majority of the cases that made it to the top of athletics had zero female development.

And they should have been excluded, and are now excluded. I have said, repeatedly, that I agree with that, and expressed by skepticism about their conditions going unnoticed.

So, what's your point?

My point is these are the types of athletes you think could have gone unnoticed. And now you’re saying you have skepticism about them going unnoticed 😵‍💫

So what’s your point?

How do you all feel about the males that are still being allowed to compete, by the way?

No, I have said repeatedly that I do not think it likely those types of athletes could go unnoticed. And I just said it again.

Some (even most) DSDs being obvious does not mean that all DSDs are, and it it thus entirely possible that some could go undetected, and unsuspected by the athlete themselves.

Women don’t have Adam’s apples like Santhi’s though. Could take an eye out.

I would love to see the source that stated Santhi was told, at 24, that never having a period was quite normal for runners.

Bearing in mind that Santhi had access to a high level medical team including scanners, because, believe it or not, imaging was pretty advanced even 20 years ago.

But not Santhi or Semenya of course. Because that’s just silly.

Literally, my point - after uncategorically approving the recent IOC decision - is that even though I agree with their exclusion, I do retain sympathy for those specific males with DSDs who genuinely and with good reason believed themselves female, and don't consider them cheats.

Apparently, we can't have that - they are cheats, every last one of them, and must have known (even though genetic males with the same condition, who are not athletes so cannot be said to be "cheating" in any sense, do sometimes have the same experience of a diagnosis during adulthood).

Bearing in mind that Santhi had access to a high level medical team including scanners
That's just a lie you keep repeating. In the far more recent (2023) study I posted of female elite or sub-elite athletes in India, only 3% even had access to a gynecologist - despite the high prevalence or menstrual dysfunction of some degree.

even though genetic males with the same condition, who are not athletes so cannot be said to be "cheating" in any sense, do sometimes have the same experience of a diagnosis during adulthood)

The cheating athletes have a medical team. Medical teams, even 20 years ago, know about periods, DSDs and the significance of masculine features, disproportionate spikes in performance at puberty and primary amenorrhea in a 24 year old.

It’s a shame for the athlete when they and their team cheat and they are found out, but it’s more of a shame for the women who are forced out of their own supposedly protected category by male athlete.

But you’ve made your point arguing this by:

a) using an Indian athlete as an example who looks as male as male can be
b) argued that they are too poor and ignorant to understand what’s happening to their bodies
c) they couldn’t possibly have access to any form of medical care to investigate it, not that they would of course due to b)

Personally I think the only way people can genuinely not know is in the same vein as those women who are genuinely shocked to find out they are in active labour. A sort of brain cognitive dissonance, like the opposite of a functional neurological disorder where instead of developing symptoms from a malfunction in the brain, the issues are completely ignored.

But on the whole, I think most of them are cheats. They were scouted for talent, pushed through the ranks, taught to deny everything, made as much prize money as they could before they couldn’t get away with any longer and have disappeared leaving a trail of disadvantaged women in their wake.

So an Olympic athlete didn’t have access to a single doctor? Not anywhere? Not a GP equivalent? What happens when they have sports injuries? Do they have to go to another country?

It doesn’t need to be a gynaecologist - to be fair, there’s no female organs. A sport doctor, family doctor. Are there no doctors in India?