AIBU to think it was never that complicated to define a woman.

[Abisequer]

The International Olympic Committee (IOC) has ruled that eligibility for the women’s category of Olympic events will now be limited to biological females, starting from the LA 2028 Games.

AIBU to think the category ‘women’ was never complicated and the obfuscation by certain governing bodies has compromised fairness in sport for women.

Examples of obfuscation include claims that genital checking would be needed or that biological men with lowered testosterone would be on an even playing field with biological women.

AIBU to think it was never complicated to define a woman and a cheek swab is all it takes.

Article

Please, feel free to produce any evidence that elite female athletes in India, in the early 2000s, had access to medical teams and facilities of the type you claim.

Please also feel free to produce evidence refuting the studies and articles describing the then-prevalent myth that loss of or delayed onset of periods was normalized (or even a good indicator of just how hard the athlete was training).

Santhi went to the Asia Games, so an IOC recognized event but not the actual Olympics.

They had access to GPs, not specialists, and at a time when female athletes were wrongly told that losing their periods was normal (even a good thing), and with strong social taboos regarding menstruation.

Please, feel free to produce any evidence that elite female athletes in India, in the early 2000s, had access to medical teams and facilities of the type you claim.

But what on earth makes you think India wouldn’t give its top athletes normal medical care in the 21st century? Other than racism and ridiculous colonial ideas about the country?

Flip me how racist are you going to get here?

Elite athletes of all nationalities have had access to experts of all kinds since they joined an elite pathway.

Since the year dot.

A GP would realise that by 24 periods should have come. you don’t need a specialist to appreciate that women should have periods.

https://www.espn.com/olympics/story/_/id/8192977/failed-gender-test-forces-olympian-redefine-athletic-career-espn-magazine

After the 2006 Olympic the Indian team doctor began investigations.

So - even 20 years ago there were Indian doctors. Funny how no one through to involve them when a male-looking 20 something athlete hadn't started periods.

Where did you read that Santhi was told it was normal to never have a period at 24?

So, so paternalistic and racist.

Interestingly, it was recognised that India had a doping problem in the Athens Olympics 2004:

https://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3582796.stm

So there were medical staff doping athletes in 2004 and prior, but it was too primitive a country in 2006 to find a single doctor to check on the general health of its athletes 🙄

I do not consider Santhi to look "as male as male can be".

I dont understand what point you're trying to make with (b) and (c), not least when those problems still largely persist in some areas of the world today - as reported by females.

Again, could I ask how you feel about those males with Complete Androgen Insensitivity Sydrome who remain permitted to compete as women? I'm fine with that, personally.

I also agree at limiting if to "Complete" (a line needs to be drawn somewhere, and that seems the most apporpriate) but at the same time acknowledge that the line between absorbing 0% testosterone and only 1% testosterone (and, in either case, a lot of estrogen) is likely a very fine one in terms of experience of the condition and competitive advantage.

(To be very clear - most males with PAIS will absorb far more than 1%, there's a wide range of how it may present, sometimes far more detectable than others - and that's without speaking of more obvious DSDs).

Yes, doping and women's menstrual healthcare are definitely the same thing.

You said there were no doctors 😀. The doping was with testosterone as well, so they knew the benefits of androgens on female performance

There were doctors requesting MRI scans on cricketers in 2005
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2005-07-31/injured-jayasuriya-guides-sri-lanka-to-victory/2070768

Maybe, back in the 2000s there was only one sports’ doctor in India, and he/she was too busy doping and managing cricketers there was no access to care for anyone else?

Again, could I ask how you feel about those males with Complete Androgen Insensitivity Sydrome who remain permitted to compete as women? I'm fine with that, personally.

I don’t believe athletes with CAIS should be allowed to compete in women’s sport. They are over represented in women’s sport compared to the incidence of the condition and they have male advantage. They never, ever have to worry about periods. Not growing up, while trying to develop as an athlete. Not in training. Their training is never disrupted by periods or the hormonal changes that come with them. Never in competition. For their entire professional career. Plus they likely have some other male advantages too.

Yes, doping and women's menstrual healthcare are definitely the same thing.

India could have its athletes access doctors for many reasons. You seem to believe it wasn’t possible for one of its top athletes, a medal winner no less, to see a doctor about basic general health. Why you think this isn’t clear.

She was told "not uncommon" rather than "normal". Its in the article you posted.

The normalization is more widely discussed in studies i posted, including the references to them and, if you prefer a lighter read, the article I posted "In women’s sports, athletes losing their periods was long considered normal. Not anymore" which describes how the myth persist even in developed countries.

Heck, in 2023: "The survey, which focused on responses from 769 athletes in the United Kingdom assigned female sex at birth, with questions concerning their menstrual cycle and body image, also found that 30 percent of respondents had been told by a medical professional that period abnormalities, including absences, were “normal” given their activity level."

But yeah, it was definitely much much better for female athletes in India, 20 years ago, before the IOC even first recommended menstrual health monitoring.

So presumably, females who dont have periods should similarly be excluded, because that's the same advantage CAIS males have?

I'm sorry you can't understand the difference between "a country has no doctors" and "a country did not prioritize women's menstrual health, had widespread stigma against discussions of it, and widely perpetuated the myth that it was normal for athletes".

There are actually subtle differences.

Anyway, I'm tapping out. I seem to be rubbing up against some sort of ideological absolutism, that wrongly sees the existence of a small subset of already-rare DSDs, and that they might go undetected for some time, as an intolerable threat to gender critical thought. All despite it being widely accepted that when TRAs try to co-opt intersex people to advance gender theory they are wrongfully conflating distinct issues.

So presumably, females who dont have periods should similarly be excluded, because that's the same advantage CAIS males have?

No, because females without CAIS who don’t have periods are either amenorrheic due to disease, body distress, or hormone manipulation through medications and they suffer the consequences of that. The athletes have to worry about these things.

It is not the same as someone whose normal healthy body homeostasis is to be without periods. CAIS athletes are completely healthy without periods. It’s a massive advantage.

We can’t on one hand say menstruation is a huge topic impacting women’s sport - whether injuries are more common, the effects on performance, training at different stages of the cycle etc - then ignore that there’s a subgroup of athletes who never have to give it a second thought.

I’m sorry you can’t distinguish between

"a country did not prioritize women's menstrual health, had widespread stigma against discussions of it, and widely perpetuated the myth that it was normal for athletes".

and one of its top athletes seeing a doctor at any stage along his journey towards winning a medal at a major games and being asked general health questions including about periods (given he was supposed to be female).

No, males with DSDs act just like TRAs and are an anathema to sex realism. They deny the reality of their sex and try their best to coerce people into thinking “it’s terribly complicated” when it isn’t.

HTH.

This is what the article said:

The news blindsided Soundarajan. She had a deep voice and a flat chest; she had never menstruated but knew that was not uncommon for female athletes

Funny how the androgenisation and lack of periods are normalised/brushed over but we don’t know who said it was all fine, nothing to see here.

Clearly not a doctor, because according to you, Santhi didn’t have one. Until Santhi was caught cheating, and then suddenly there were Indian doctors available and doing the tests that should have been done 6 years earlier. Maybe they had finished doping other athletes and finally finished scanning the cricketers.

Athletes who “lose their periods” had them in the first place. You keep trying to conflate athletes with other menstrual issues with Santhi never having one.

Annoyed at the IOC decision, then?

It's really obvious that the poster, under cover of "I accept the IOC ruling, I just feel so sorry for men with DSDs, that's all I'm doing, expressing sympathy night and day" is just trying to make a case for undermining the IOC ruling by having men with DSDs compete as women.

I would ban CAIS as well, although I know it’s a hard sell. Until PAIS and CAIS can be reliably and reproducibly differentiated from each other, it presents a potential loophole in the IOC decision.

Yep, the poor athletes who were born into poverty, weren’t taught about periods by white people and, even as international athletes didn’t have any doctors to help them work out why they’d never had a period, had an Adam’s apple, a deep voice and a flat chest.

So so sad.

So again, the many females surved in the studies earlier posted, who were elite or sub-elite athletes, and 97% do not even have access to a gynecologist in 2023, just liars?

Or, if there really are that many of them, set up a league for people with CAIS.

That'll require testing too, though. It would be worth it just to see the "yeah but no but" crowd lose their collective mind.

I’m sure they are, yes.

Personally I am very pleased with it. I’d like it to include CAIS for the reasons I stated, but that will come with time.

If people weren't so unbelievably triggered by "I do retain some sympathy to those with DSDs who believed themselves, with good reason, to be female" then perhaps I wouldn't feel the need to respond to the avalanche of backlash.

It still doesn't strike me as a hot take, but there we go.