Resident doctors synicsl strike again

[uneffingbelievable]

The resident doctors have once again announced a 6 day strike to co incide with a bank holiday weekend.

Whilst I support fair pay and working conditions I have lost all sympathy with them. This is not poverty when you are being paid as a whole package 40-95000 gross on a 44 hr week depending on your seniority.

The arguments about lack of jobs did not stack up with more jobs going to home graduates than IMGS despite the hysteria and a huge number of home graduates not even bothering to apply.

They are coming across as tone deaf and entitled or am I missing something.

Well the strikes harm patients too. I’m in Scotland. All funding increases on NHS services are swallowed up by unaffordable pay rises demanded by doctors. We have no strikes but we have a far worse NHS than England thanks to a lack of funding.

Rolling over to pay demands massively damages patients.

1000 fewer training places will harm patients over many many decades or even generations- loss of current doctors plus fewer doctors in the future. The impact will be over generations. I just don’t think is the right stick to use.

Just ban them from striking. If we really want a fair pay system we need to get rid of the NHS.

I'd say that was the nurses - who aren't going on strike and are far less well paid.

It won't.

Primarily because the govt decides how many consultants there should be and training numbers are adjusted accordingly. Wes Streeting has indicated there will be no increase in consultant numbers. So increasing the number of posts available to junior doctors now will simply move the employment bottleneck a few years down the road for the next government to contend with - which would presumably be very much Starmer's preferred option.

Secondly, if/when training post are increased it will probably be achieved by rebadging LE posts.

Could you please explain the last bit for lay people, @Marchesman ?

I could be wrong but have the impression that LE posts are something of a dumping ground. Fine if you just need the dosh whilst focusing elsewhere, otherwise somewhat undesirable.
Do you think that some will actually be incorporated into training pathways? If so would that be a formalism or a genuine opportunity?

Disagree - nurses are the ones patients see as they are on the same wards for the shift and patients will see them working, being ever present and available and so have this halo. The others (doctors, physios etc) are all working from ward to ward, clinics, theatres etc and so give the impression of not being there for the patients.

I wouldn’t believe anything Wes Streeting says to that effect. Unfortunately, there does need to be an increase in consultant numbers for cancer if nothing else, unless you want a physicians associate doing your surgery or chemotherapy.

@Whatisrichandhaveiearnedit Or indeed simply are not there. They are on strike!

@WhatisrichandhaveiearneditThe doctors get the training places and a 3.5% pay rise. They can accept both! We need this constant striking to stop. Others have accepted 3.5%. It’s not unreasonable and gives pay increases of 35% over 4 years. Many others would literally die for that and so many haven’t had great pay rises for decades.

@Whatisrichandhaveiearnedit Other sectors don’t have the striking power. It’s only certain groups and unions that can hold us to ransom. I’d agree to banning unions - like the police. It’s time to stop this continual nonsense. Private workers rarely strike now. Plus millions cannot just change jobs! As if!

🙄
Either they are do a lot of essential work and so striking causes disruption and delays

or they are just not there and/or are purely training at our expense with the nurses doing the work and saving lives, in which case doctors strikes shouldn’t be disruptive.

This is like the private school posts that I give wide berth to - they buy unfair advantage and spoon feed to give better exam results and opportunities whilst simultaneously being a waste of money.

Id ban strike action for NHS staff and also railway and public transport staff as well

That’s what posters are suggesting the doctors do… they knew the career and pay they were going to get….if they don’t like it then leave….same applies to everyone or is it only when it suits your narrative?

I think workers should have the power to strike, public or private sector - it’s so important especially in a monopoly, which much of the public sector is. In the public sector you can move jobs, negotiate pay, perks etc. Not so much in the public sector.

Doesn’t matter what many others would settle for. Many others can negotiate with their unions/sector.

And I think your employer should be allowed to fire you if you strike

I agree with this. Qualifying in UK with a heavily subsidised tuition scheme means if a Dr does want to go to Australia upon graduation for more $ they should back pay the real cost of their education.

That is illogical

Why not? You withdraw your labour? Why can't they withdraw employment?

This is very hard to enforce.

In the absence of a general overhaul of student loans I support the principle but not the implementation.

Pause the interest during F1 and F2 and begin a programme of debt forgiveness during Core or Specialty Training.

@poetryandwineA nominal amount can be attached to it. Say x number of months salary. I had a contract to pay back my fees if I left my employer. It’s perfectly possible.

Not on such a large scale as NHS doctors, though.

The 2024 GMC report referred to by @Marchesman showed that nearly 75% of the 2021 F2s paused their training. Data after that on this cohort are patchy.

UK finances in their present state are such that we cannot finance a career break for 75% of those who may or may not eventually serve as fully qualified NHS doctors. Nor would I consider that equitable. Debt forgiveness for work accomplished, in addition to fair wages and working conditions, is.

Many F2s don't apply for a training post, instead they go for for a Locally Employed post and switch to a training post a year or two later. For about half of juniors in LE posts this was their game plan. The BMA likes to give the impression that not having a training post is synonymous with being unemployed after F2, and if LE posts come up they are, as you say, billed as undesirable. But the training is exactly the same, the only difference in practice is that career progression is not automatic.

If the government wanted to fiddle around with this, the jobs and funding already exist, if selection and seniority followed the system for specialist training they would be indistinguishable. At the end of it trainees could all fight over consultant posts on an equal basis. Whether there are enough appointable UK doctors to fill all the extra training posts demanded by the union is different matter.

@uneffingbelievable will have a better handle on whether it would be as simple as this, but I can't see a problem - at least not for this administration.

It's more complicated than that because "resident" doctors are a heterogeneous lot. Core trainees earn on average £70k, and STs £80k, but striking doctors would garner little sympathy if they started banging on about this not being enough. So the BMA focuses on F1s salaries (which are in fact also quite generous - £45k). If only F1s went on strike, I don't think anyone would mind very much.