Mumsnet race to the bottom

[limeandwater]

I have noticed on MN there has been a real race to the bottom mentality. To be clear I am not talking about budget advice threads that can be incredibly helpful.

I am talking about the posters that think working people should be so accepting of a miserable life.

Again I am not talking about 5 star holidays in The Maldives, 26 plate Range Rovers, or shopping at Harrods Food Hall.

Somebody posts about the price of coffee then the response is to make your own and bring it with you. Somebody posts about the price of a cafe lunch on a family day out and the response is bring your own sandwiches. Somebody posted about the cost of running a car and the answer is cycle. Like that's realistic in a rainy December.

When did people get so accepting that life had to be miserable?

@Mangelwurzelfortea its ridiculous, younger generations have less disposable income than previous generations did at the same age, largely because of housing costs.

But it’s far easier to blame individuals rather than reflect on the actual reality so then the issues can be ignored.

Housing costs and massive university debts. I can't even imagine starting my working life with all that hanging round my neck - and not even any guarantee of a job. Not even a good job - any job.

It's not judging its basic financial sense.

These are interesting examples OP because I think they’re things that have shifted over time. My parents were pretty well off, never had any money worries, but honestly I can hardly remember a time from our childhood when they bought a takeaway coffee, and we almost always took a picnic with us if we had a day out. So there can be an element of mindset shift in some smaller things like this where we’ve just convinced ourselves that little daily conveniences are necessary. But I totally agree with you on the more general point. It shouldn’t be so hard to earn enough to pay rent bills and food without needing to worry. While “make do with what you can afford” is a reasonable line of advice in the short term and for an individual, it sucks as a response to the general situation of continually decaying salaries and living standards. Unfortunately it does seem that we’re in a position where the country is no longer productive enough or internationally competitive enough to support the standard of life that most people want. Plus the massive shift of wealth that’s been allowed in recent decades. Not an easy one to solve.

As I said, crack on with take out coffees if you wish, BUT don't then claim poverty.

Someone else mentioned university. It is not compulsory and you could be earning for 5 years rather than running up debts. So many put themselves on a self destructive path with no long term game plan.

It's up to you how you take it.

But yes, I think having assumptions challenged and having someone say "no, you don't need to have X, I don't and I'm fine" or "honestly Y isn't really that nice, you'll probably feel better for not having it" or "actually you can do Z, all you need is .... " and basically offering new perspectives and new options is far more supportive in the long term than a gentle hand pat and "oh poor you, you can't possibly be expected to do without your coffee and your cafe lunch, life is really unfair".

Sometimes, though, it's really bloody depressing when a small avenue of pleasure is closed off to you. We all have small joys in our lives, and it's bloody miserable and annoying when they're taken away from us.

People are allowed to have a little vent about that, surely, without a bunch of sanctimonious bellends popping up to tell them that actually, their small joy was just a stupid extravagance that they should be ashamed of enjoying in the first place, and could easily be replaced with something they don't actually enjoy at all.

If people were saying 'God, Rolexes are so expensive these days, AIBU to think they should be affordable to me?' then yes, they'd be ridiculous. But sneering at someone for feeling a bit miserable that they can't afford the small pleasure of a coffee and a cake in a cafe with with their kids and implying that they're profligate oafs for even considering the idea is, frankly, just dickish.

The assumption that the poster was having something greasy or fatty, rather than a soup or a salad is ok then? They said they missed going for lunch in a local cafe, not what they ate while there. It’s only assumptions that don’t fit with yours that are worthy of challenge?

And Y may not be nice to you, but you can’t objectively say it’s not nice for someone else, or that they’re wrong for wanting Z that you wouldn’t choose.

I've read through pages and pages of these two threads now (this + Panorama), and not one person has said, "Oh, a flask of coffee! That's a good idea, I'll try that tomorrow!"

Or "Right, from now on I'm making my own sandwiches, because you, random internet stranger, are doing that and you're happy, so I'm sure I will be too!"

All we're doing is putting each other's backs up to no purpose - as usual

I guess the thread title does set people up the wrong way - it is basically saying if you prefer a life that isn’t built around coffees and expensive days out you are somehow at the bottom and you shouldn’t be proud of how you live

I think the answer is since the majority of your country voted for Brexit.

At the start of the Middle East war, there were stories on the news every night of people stuck in Dubai when hostilities started.
One young couple had left their baby behind with her mum to go on holiday in Dubai and had been caught up in it and their return had been delayed.
It must have been miserable - and expensive - for them and I had a lot of sympathy for them.
But then he said that they had 'had to use money they were saving for a house deposit' to pay for accommodation and went on to say that they had been saving for years etc.
When my ex and I were saving for a deposit in the 1980s, every single spare penny we had went into that savings account. No holiday at all, never mind an expensive holiday in Dubai 'while saving for years for a deposit'.
I think it's that type of entitlement and selective hardship that turns off a lot of my sympathy about how hard it is to live today. Just imagine if they had not had that holiday - their deposit would have been £5,000(?) more. But evidently they must have thought they deserved that holiday because they worked hard.
Go figure.

What's that got to do with you? If her daily Costa coffees bring her pleasure, it's perfectly OK for her to buy them. With her money. That she earned.

We all could all save money if we made our lives completely fucking joyless and miserable, but most human beings would rather have some pleasant indulgences in their lives, because, you know, we're not self-flagellating puritans.

Sometimes, though, it's really bloody depressing when a small avenue of pleasure is closed off to you. We all have small joys in our lives, and it's bloody miserable and annoying when they're taken away from

And it’s not a new thing. The lipstick effect was a thing during the Great Depression. ’Beauty is your duty’ etc

Sigh.

Again, it's about different perspectives.

You seem very fixated on something having to be agreed by everyone as right or wrong, good or bad.

I'm suggesting that knowing someone else doesn't value X,Y or Z that you see as essential can open up possibilities and new approaches.

It's inspiration not prescription.

And as long as you are not complaining about things have never been so hard and boomers have no idea, that's fine.
But it jars when people expect to spend much more money on fripperies then complain they haven't got the spare cash earlier generations have.

we're not self-flagellating puritans.

perhaps this should be part of the next governments campaign slogan!

But it jars when people expect to spend much more money on fripperies then complain they haven't got the spare cash earlier generations have.

I think it’s more jarring when some cannot comprehend that younger generations don’t have the same disposable income as previous generations did at their age due to fripperies instead of housing costs and wage stagnation. It’s really not that hard to understand but 🤷🏻‍♀️

Yes absolutely it is for her to buy whatever she likes! The objection comes when she spends the afternoon complaining at what the world is coming to when coffee costs £4. It is fine to choose to spend your money on whatever you like just don't then moan about it.

She doesn't seem to get any pleasure or joy from it. If she came back happy it would have no impact.

But yes, I think having assumptions challenged and having someone say "no, you don't need to have X, I don't and I'm fine" or "honestly Y isn't really that nice, you'll probably feel better for not having it" or "actually you can do Z, all you need is .... " and basically offering new perspectives and new options is far more supportive in the long term

It isn't remotely supportive, though. It's patronising, overbearing and smug.

It's also very egocentric of you to assume that a) people haven't already considered your very obvious suggestions and ruled them out because they aren't right for them, and b) just because YOU happen to feel better for not having something, everyone else will/should too.

It's not supportive - you might mean it to be, but it just comes across as smug superiority.

You also need to learn the difference between someone who is just expressing an opinion to get something off their chest, and someone who is actually asking for your advice. Don't expect people to be delighted with your advice when they never asked for it in the first place.

When my ex and I were saving for a deposit in the 1980s, every single spare penny we had went into that savings account. No holiday at all, never mind an expensive holiday in Dubai 'while saving for years for a deposit'.

I did have holidays before I got on the property ladder. Largely because I was older so it would have been a long time to forego holidays.

My parents bought their 2nd “forever home” at 30 in the 80s in London. Helped by an interest only mortgage.

Yeah, I wouldn't expect a road to Damascus type conversion on the thread 😂 it's more about ideas that stick (sometimes exactly because they get the back up!) and people come back to over time.

I've seen it. I've experienced it myself. I've been really angry at having my spending priorities questioned / challenged. But over time I thought about it and I had to admit to myself that person had a point.

Some things I changed. Some things I kept doing, but now as a conscious choice and with awareness that I was making decisions not to use my money in other ways that might be long term beneficial.

It is fine to choose to spend your money on whatever you like just don't then moan about it.

So none of us can complain about rising energy costs or food prices? Everytime I go shopping I have a moan, as does everyone I know!

I think you find it’s just one generation that got used to having lots of spare cash for none essentials - quite a small cohort. A lot of older people never saw the point of the coffee culture because it wasn’t an option when they were forming their habits - habits that tend to stay with you for life

so you don’t miss what you never wanted. In my case I put more into the pension pot if I had any left. Which for a good many years I didn’t.

But I know the younger generation also finds it hard to accept that older people who now have homes of their own were at one time surviving in a bed sit in the cheapest part of town ( it’s red light district) and counting the pennies for a potato for their tea. Whilst working full time in a decent job.

Ah, now you see the only suggestions I have made on this thread were in direct answer to someone saying cycling requires Thing X, because I know from my own experience it doesn't.

I was actually in this post speaking from the perspective of someone who received the suggestions.