Daughter starting nursery job, expected unpaid early starts and late finishes

[Nurserynewby12]

My daughter is looking forward to beginning a new job this week in childcare. She interviewed really well and will be studying for a qualification too. This all seems great. I work in accounts so do not know much about nursery care work but she has told me she has to start fifteen minutes early every day and will have to stay later than her finish time if parents are late or cleaning needs to be done. Both of these early and late instances will apparantly be unpaid. I do not know about nursery things much but did think this is unpaid work and not legal? Is there different rules for nurseries? I think if this happens all time she is being exploited whether she gets a qualification or not? She does not know as she is new to this area of work. I want to protect her from being exploited but need views from childcare/employment lawyers? Anyone around from employment law or a nursery manager to advise?

I'm making the point that unions will not necessarily support their members.

Do you think there’s top dollar in nurseries?

My daughters pays everyone at minimum wage except the people in charge of the rooms who are on 24p/hour above the minimum wage.

This isn’t like training to be a Barrister where somehow all your free time might be rewarded in future if you stick it out.

That's because members don't always have a case to support/represent.

But either way what you actually said was

"It seems though that many unions aren't interested in representing women these days", which is ridiculous, Darlington Nurses or not.

OP, ignore this hyperbole and make sure you daughter pays the few pounds per month it takes to be part of a Union.

Yeah, I can imagine the OP's daughter demanding 'top dollar' to work in a nursery! 🤦‍♀️

Childcare is an awful industry to get into. It’s obviously a very much needed role and good practitioners are like gold dust

I disagree with your second statement. There are many excellent practitioners in various settings. Just because someone works for minimum wage, whether it's in the private or public sector, doesn't mean they're not conscientious and good at their jobs.

You're the one who brought trans into it.

It is quite normal in a lot of jobs, especially if there is a team briefing etc. However, your daughter is on minimimum wage, unlike most of us who do have to work a bit over our hours, so this would put her below the legal minimum wage and she should not be expected to work for free. It might be worth her querying it in writing to the manager/owners and pointing out the illegality of expecting staff to work for free.

She should start, join a union, log all the times she's worked unpaid, then take it to the union. The company should be in for fines and they will also have to pay her the arrears.

At least drum it into her that a union will help.

I don't think this is that unusual in any kind of hourly-paid customer-facing (in this case, child-facing!) job where you are usually only paid for the business's hours of operation and your physical presence is required the whole time.

Like when I worked in retail, I was expected to be there ahead of the shutters opening, and if I was shutting up I obviously couldn't do that before the end of the opening hours, so usually there was a 10/15 min window either side of the day where I wasn't getting paid, but it wasn't every day as others would do it/I might be on different shifts etc.

Our nursery is open 8-6 but obviously the staff have to be there ready to start at 8, and usually they are able to finish up a bit earlier than 6 as the children are mainly gone by then so not all staff need to stay and one of them is able to do the cleaning etc for the next day around the remaining children as they play - I'd expect this to be similar with your daughter's role.

Did you miss the ‘once qualified’? I worked for anything they’d give me and bent over backwards. And I’ll reiterate once qualified I could then look for well paid work.

There is no well paid work. Once qualified she might get a few pence an hour more.

Not unusual but illegal, and lots of retail chains get fined for this now.

Yes, I do understand the difference because im not an idiot.
In my job I have to be in 10 mins early to get sorted out and if I am with a client at my finish time, I dont just walk out mid way with a breezy wave and say 'im done now, bye'. Admittedly, if over 10 mins we do get to claim it back, but I rsrely do.Its crap and I get it but it's life. If OPs daughter doesn't like it then I suggest she finds a new job as there will be plenty of willing people ready to take her place.

It's not life though is it, why accept your employer stealing wages from you 🤔really don't understand that attitude.
Other than minimum wage, are there any other employment rights you don't think people should have?

That’s besides the point. If you want to get a good name and get on in life. It shows willing and will help in future employment. Once her job is secured then she can question it.

Going by this thread, an awful lot of people have drunk the Kool-Aid in terms of what it is/isn't reasonable for employers to expect. It's so depressing.

If it's beside the point, why did you even mention it?

I do get where you are coming from. Its quite a bit of unpaid work. I kind of just take the view that as an adult, things can juat be like that sometimes. There are always going to be elements of our jobs we dont like and ita down to us to either accept it, quit, or dispute it. Maybe my view is a bit skewed as my work offers so much in terms of benefits and flexibility that I find the odd bot of extra free time a very small sacrifice.

Seems like you’ve really jumped the gun, you have no idea whether she’ll regularly be required to stay late or not if she hasn’t even started. Reporting to HMRC now sounds like a huge overreaction. Obviously she should be paid for her time but you seem a little entitled when she has zero experience and it’s her first job. How easy will it be for her to get another similar job if you live rurally? I started early and/or finished late in all the entry level minimum wage and part time jobs I did in the past, it was kind of expected and I didn’t have an issue with it. Once you have experience and qualifications you can vote with your feet and get a better role.

I think there’s a bit of a generational thing going on. Previous generations were rewarded for putting in that little bit extra, but that’s just not the case anymore. The one piece of advice I would give myself from twenty years ago is do NOT work for free. You will not gain anything other than resentment.

Wow really?!!

Interesting, I honestly would have thought it was just standard with most jobs, but then again I suppose there is no reason a firm shouldn't pay you for those 15 mins either side.

It's illegal to pay under minimum wage. Once workers are doing an extra 15-30 mins a day unpaid, plus an unpaid team meetings, plus some unpaid training - companies start increasing their profits by thousands in unpaid wages.

but then they should pay eariler for that time. yes morally i agree and id do it for free, but when time is money etc

It's bog standard in all education roles. Not right. But standard.
Edited for typo

It’s two and a half hours a week unpaid. Based on a 37 hour week that translates to over three weeks a year unpaid allowing for holidays. I agree that OP shouldn’t rush into anything and maybe see how things go the first few weeks, but if this is the case, it’s illegal - it takes employees below minimum wage.