Daughter starting nursery job, expected unpaid early starts and late finishes

[Nurserynewby12]

My daughter is looking forward to beginning a new job this week in childcare. She interviewed really well and will be studying for a qualification too. This all seems great. I work in accounts so do not know much about nursery care work but she has told me she has to start fifteen minutes early every day and will have to stay later than her finish time if parents are late or cleaning needs to be done. Both of these early and late instances will apparantly be unpaid. I do not know about nursery things much but did think this is unpaid work and not legal? Is there different rules for nurseries? I think if this happens all time she is being exploited whether she gets a qualification or not? She does not know as she is new to this area of work. I want to protect her from being exploited but need views from childcare/employment lawyers? Anyone around from employment law or a nursery manager to advise?

It seems though that many unions aren't interested in representing women these days.

I experienced this when working in a school. I didn't mind doing the extra but I expected to be paid for it. I hadn't worked in a school before , previous jobs were office customer service roles, you logged off thr second your shift finished and were out the door. Including managers. Anything worked over was claimed as overtime .
My other colleagues in the school who had never worked anywhere else before other then education never questioned it and just did it. I upset the apple cart because I told them straight I wasnt doing it unless paid. I would leave at my finish time. Why would I work for free? My colleague would sometimes work 3 hours over every night unpaid and unappreciated. Absolutely ridiculous. Not to mention when the pay is stretched over 12 months it takes you under min wage too. I enjoyed the environment and of course the school holidays but the expectations on very low paid staff were obscene. I dont work there anymore.

Well the alternative is to put up and shut up then. They have no idea how things work in practice until DD actually starts the job - there may be other ‘perks’ to make up for this expectation, or there may not. In any event they won’t get far without evidence to support a claim of exploitation or a breach of minimum wage regulations, and if OP makes a fuss as she intends, her DD is unlikely to continue in the job anyway. To my mind it’s better to start the job and see what actually happens. The reality may be different to what they anticipate, but if there is exploitation at least they will have the evidence to try to effect change. Otherwise what’s the point ?

Please don’t lump us all
imto the same category.
I pay my staff well and care very much for their well being.

Yes I'd put up and shut up. Certainly until I got some experience of working life. I wouldn't think making a stand as an inexperienced 21 year old in this jobs market was a wise move, however noble I may feel the cause. Being a jobsworth is not a good look to an employer. Getting your mum to fight your battles is even worse. And if she doesn't like the job she can leave.

It's standard. When I was in retail we were paid until we closed but then we had to cash up in our own time.

Just a thought - you say you work in accounts. If you're supposed to be there at say 9 to work, do you turn up at 9, take your coat off, stow your bag, make a coffee/tea, perhaps have a chat, then settle to start real work at 9.15? If you do, you probably make the time up over your breaks, not usually possible customer facing. Or do you make sure you're there ready to work properly at 9.00?

My friends boss used to ask the staff to work for free all the time. My friend is not thw own to take any bs and is well aware of her rights and responsibilities. Basically every time the boss expected her to do something that was not in her contract like cleaning up classrooms, come set up before lessons start, stay behind to wait with the kids, assist child with temporary disability. She would just ask about compensation, ask how it would be handled with whatever body was in charge and wanted it written down in case something happend and payroll to be informed. Even colleague tried to say it is not a big deal but they had happily sone the unpaid work for decades and never challenged it. The younger staff is very appreciative.

Point it that in nurseries, schools, hospitals etc. It is expected to do free labour but you don't have to. Undertsnd your rights and responsibilities and challenge.

Why accept it though?
No one should be working for less than minimum wage.
The whole reason we have things like minimum wage, maternity leave, protections from child labour, weekends off, holidays etc is because people refused to accept it.

Now it's become a weird boast 'ha I'm totally exploited and do it willingly!'

Where I live nurseries are notorious for treating staff terribly,

I remember our nursery received a surprise Ofsted visit after somebody reported to Ofsted some employment problems. They were actually downgraded from Outstanding to Inadequate based on this alone - you get (or used to get) Inadequate if there is an error in safeguarding, and the nursery failed this because they did not report some bullying issues correctly. So formally they were downgraded because they did not report employee-employee or employee-employer issues correctly even though it does on the surface seem like an employment issue.

She needs to be ready to start with the children on time so arriving 15 minutes earlier is not unreasonable. You can’t just breeze up as they arrive. How often would the late end time likely be? Check if the extra time reduces her rate below nmw as that would be illegal.

She may have been on salary. If a wage I would think this would be illegal.

Big retail chains have been caught out and fined for doing this too, and made to pay staff back.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/hundreds-of-employers-handed-penalties-for-illegally-underpaying-workers
High street stores including Costa (failed to pay £149,851.25 to 2,759 workers.)
and loads of nurseries:
Busy Bees Nurseries Limited, Burntwood, WS7, failed to pay £485,374.05 to 9,056 workers.
Tinysaurus Nurseries Ltd, Rushden, NN10, failed to pay £129,388.76 to 85 workers.
Little Pumpkins Nursery Ltd, London Borough of Lewisham, SE12, failed to pay £17,624.85 to 6 workers.

I'd agree with you apart from Labour have buggered up the jobs market, especially for the young, and have created the situation where beggars can't be chosers. All the well meaning interference like minimum wage rises and day one employment rights are pretty useless if it just deters employers from employing people. And yes it's not fair but that's life under this government. Particularly for young people (I have two a similar age).

Seems like it's always normal in female orientated jobs. No way would most men put up with it. They would expect prep time to be paid for.

What examples do you have?

I used to do 7am until 7-7:30pm when I first started working at a nursery. It was a nursery attached to a school so we didn't open until 9 and all children left at 3 but it was expected I help out at the school as well and help teachers prepare things. It wasn't paid and it was one of the reasons I left, after so many years and minumum wage I just couldn't do it anymore and it was expected of everyone to do.

Getting in a few minutes early to hang up your coat, have a quick chat in the staff room and get to your room a minute before the children arrive is fine.
But many nurseries expect staff to be in and ready to start 15 minutes early so they can set up the room, do safety checks of the garden, get out the breakfast things etc which is work and should be paid.

Even more reason to refuse to allow illegal behaviour from businesses.

Yes. I never used childcare centres but I have heard of this in New Zealand. I assumed the penalty payment would go to whoever stayed late as well as an incentive to stop lateness.

Report them to HMRC. They won’t know whose done it.

Makes sense. I certainly wouldn’t want my son taken care of by somebody who wasn’t being paid and wanted to go home.

Shop work and hospitality definitely. If workplaces need setting up the setting up time should be paid for.

Well if you don't want jobs to go to I suppose. Labour have created this situation unfortunately.