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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

NAMALT. Really? Dig deep and be honest with yourself. AMALT

571 replies

NoEggs · 04/03/2026 21:47

I love my DH. He’s a great guy and we’ve been happy for many years.

But
He’s not perfect. Doesn’t do the laundry. Defaults to letting me make stuff happen etc. etc.

Now even if your partner is a paragon I would argue that the species ‘men’ will generally default to slightly bloody useless.

AIBU?

OP posts:
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12
Carla786 · 13/03/2026 22:23

GaIadriel · 13/03/2026 01:33

I don't really want to get into another mud slinging match though. Appreciate I can be a little direct at times but ultimately it's just my opinion, which many no doubt disagree with. And we certainly hear enough of the counter argument. Often in an equally aggressive manner.

But my experience is that I notice a lot of women espousing strongly feminist views when young (in their late teens/their 20s) but quietly shifting their focus with age. Initially, they go from being a kid to a young adult and the commencement of university often exposes them to a lot of new ideas. Logically, it makes sense that women should be paid as much as men, and statistically it's clear that as a group we're not.

You'll see a lot of young women trying to 'educate' the rest of society as if they've experienced some epiphany of truth which the unenlightened majority haven't. Not just with feminism but all manner of woke stuff.

But then many of us hit our 30s and things start to change. I'm only a little past 30 but I notice it in many of my older friends from my office days. When I was in my early 20s and they their late 20s it was all about the career and climbing the ladder etc. But then many had kids and stepped back for a bit. At some point they decided that their husband/partner's salary was enough for them to stay part time and that's what they did.

I think many shift focus and prioritise their family/children over their career, which may be an innate biological drive, but that's a discussion for another thread. I see many such women popping up in SAHM threads and often they're quite defensive of their choices, like some working women are a little derisive of 'full time mothers'. A common reply is 'we did what was best for our family' or 'what we decide is nobody else's business'.

Both are reasonable statements IMO but it must be acknowledged that these choices are a significant factor driving the pay gap and many of these women might've sung a different song a decade prior. Ultimately, their choices fuel the debate around the pay gap.

Of course it's not always a choice and some families can't afford to lose the wage of the primary earner. But if you holiday several times a year, have a nice house, drive nice cars, have kids at private school, etc, then most likely you could tighten the belt and get by with two full time salaries totalling slightly less than one optimised salary.

The reality is that people will often talk a good game but ultimately do what gives them the greatest personal benefit/quality of life. Especially given that the personal reward will be significant compared to the social benefit bestowed by a single person choosing personal sacrifice for the greater good - this only works when many thousands of people do it. It's just human nature to put yourself and your family first.

If straight white men are the most privileged demographic then straight white women are a close second. And the latter are usually the first to complain about the former, despite being the ones that choose to marry them. Once you're in your 30s-40s with kids at school, working part time, sharing a joint bank account, living a decent life. This is the point where you probably aren't too upset about men earning more, because if they didn't your family would be much less comfortable.

NGL, if I met an extremely wealthy Channing Tatum lookalike who was rich enough for me to become a lady of leisure without blinking an eye, I'd probs give it a crack. If it didn't work out there's always another machine to drive and it usually takes but a couple of calls to get another £50k job starting next week. Might just have to spend a few hundred updating my tickets/CPC if it'd been more than a few years.

Appreciate that's not the case for all women but generally reward doesn't come without risk. If you don't want to risk remortgaging your house/wasting your savings then nobody is forcing you to start a business, but you probs won't end up extremely wealthy either. Having the option to work part time for 30-40 years without any personal risk is an absurd expectation IMO, but no doubt more appealing a risk if you're not a high earner or in a career job - a minimum wage worker has much less to lose and may well walk away better off.

The conversation is typically framed from a middle class professional perspective but honestly I'm doubtful if all the Range Rover driving bimbos I see turning up at my mate's daughter's private school would be earning £100k were they working full time.

Apologies, I was trying to write a more diplomatic post but I've failed. 🤣

That's OK, this is an interesting post.

I'm not sure how much it applies to FWR though. Most women here are probably 30s-40s and many are older. I'm not sure if women in their 20s are less likely to identify as particularly feminist.

'I think many shift focus and prioritise their family/children over their career, which may be an innate biological drive, but that's a discussion for another thread. I see many such women popping up in SAHM threads and often they're quite defensive of their choices, like some working women are a little derisive of 'full time mothers'. A common reply is 'we did what was best for our family' or 'what we decide is nobody else's business'.'

  • this is a fair point. Important to distinguish working part-time from SAHM though.. there's probably a lot more of the former,,given that 70% of UK women do do paid work. SAHMs may appear prominent on MN due to selection bias.
Carla786 · 13/03/2026 22:28

MrsChristmasHasResigned · 13/03/2026 20:04

The motherhood penalty does not explain the whole pay gap. The systemic ways women are discriminated against are explained in hosts of research, its not hard to find. Yes, some things are less favourable to men like the draft. And working until you drop is not a solely male preserve. Women are shown (in the research) to be much more financially negatively affected by divorce then men.

To say at this point that the only evidence put forward in this thread is anecdotal is disingenuous.

What do you think the biggest factors are after the motherhood penalty? I suppose the way to test would be to directly compare the wages of women without kids to men's in general, I'll have a look...

GaIadriel · 14/03/2026 01:40

Nellodee · 13/03/2026 06:27

42% of marriages end in divorce after a median length of 12 years. This means that a large amount of those privileged white women making different choices after having their kids are actually going to be fucked over by those choices. The remaining 58% won’t necessarily have even access to finances or secure pension provision. They just have to hope that “not my Nigel” works out for them. They had probably better not read the relationship boards on here.

Blindly relying on a spouse without ensuring financial security is playing roulette with your future. Better hope you bet on the right colour.

Perhaps. But it's a choice many women make nonetheless. A lot of feminists talk as if the pay gap is something purely caused by sexism and not largely by women's choices.

GaIadriel · 14/03/2026 01:44

Carla786 · 13/03/2026 22:28

What do you think the biggest factors are after the motherhood penalty? I suppose the way to test would be to directly compare the wages of women without kids to men's in general, I'll have a look...

I watched a debate ages ago between the feminist Kate Smurthwaite and another woman who I think was also called Kate. She was an economist and head of some organisation IIRC. She (the latter Kate) referenced a study by The Economist which found that childless female execs continued to be 'promoted more aggressively' than their male peers.

I'd imagine it'd be fairly easy to find the vid on YT.

GaIadriel · 14/03/2026 01:46

I'm sure that women were actually slightly outearning men until about around 35yo in a fair few studies. But when it reverses the gap is way bigger.

Carla786 · 14/03/2026 01:57

GaIadriel · 14/03/2026 01:44

I watched a debate ages ago between the feminist Kate Smurthwaite and another woman who I think was also called Kate. She was an economist and head of some organisation IIRC. She (the latter Kate) referenced a study by The Economist which found that childless female execs continued to be 'promoted more aggressively' than their male peers.

I'd imagine it'd be fairly easy to find the vid on YT.

Was the implication that they were being promoted due to being women, partly? I'll have a look.

A related issue I think is relevant : there's evidence that lesbians tend to outearn straight women- though there are exceptions : in France there's no difference, no Sweden, and in Australia, oddly they earn less.

Some reasons for this suggested include: lesbians being more likely to go into high-paying male-dominated professions, being less likely to have kids (though this is changing), more likely to work longer hours and more likely to share housework evenly with their partner.

https://www.weforum.org/stories/2017/03/gender-pay-gap-lesbian-premium/

You’ve heard of the gender pay gap – but what about the ‘sexuality wage gap’?

Lesbians earn on average 9% more than heterosexual women.

https://www.weforum.org/stories/2017/03/gender-pay-gap-lesbian-premium/

GaIadriel · 14/03/2026 02:04

Carla786 · 14/03/2026 01:57

Was the implication that they were being promoted due to being women, partly? I'll have a look.

A related issue I think is relevant : there's evidence that lesbians tend to outearn straight women- though there are exceptions : in France there's no difference, no Sweden, and in Australia, oddly they earn less.

Some reasons for this suggested include: lesbians being more likely to go into high-paying male-dominated professions, being less likely to have kids (though this is changing), more likely to work longer hours and more likely to share housework evenly with their partner.

https://www.weforum.org/stories/2017/03/gender-pay-gap-lesbian-premium/

Was the implication that they were being promoted due to being women, partly? I'll have a look.

I don't think that was the point. It was a very small difference (1.1% I think) but it was highlighting that things were fairly even until the age that many women have children.

That's interesting about lesbians. I had no idea. Will defo give that a read when I have time (got an assessment for a new job at 8am tomoz and only just got in).

Carla786 · 14/03/2026 02:21

GaIadriel · 14/03/2026 02:04

Was the implication that they were being promoted due to being women, partly? I'll have a look.

I don't think that was the point. It was a very small difference (1.1% I think) but it was highlighting that things were fairly even until the age that many women have children.

That's interesting about lesbians. I had no idea. Will defo give that a read when I have time (got an assessment for a new job at 8am tomoz and only just got in).

Thanks, that makes sense

Another thing with lesbians is that I suspect that, esp if they realise early, as increasingly happens, they probably are sometimes more likely to put emphasis on being financially self-sufficient and higher-earning, given they can't rely on a man being sole provider or main breadwinner. Ofc in theory they could rely on a woman to do that, but the small dating pool tends to make finding someone take longer - and anyway I don't think that many lesbian couples have breadwinner/SAH setups.

GaIadriel · 14/03/2026 02:26

Carla786 · 14/03/2026 02:21

Thanks, that makes sense

Another thing with lesbians is that I suspect that, esp if they realise early, as increasingly happens, they probably are sometimes more likely to put emphasis on being financially self-sufficient and higher-earning, given they can't rely on a man being sole provider or main breadwinner. Ofc in theory they could rely on a woman to do that, but the small dating pool tends to make finding someone take longer - and anyway I don't think that many lesbian couples have breadwinner/SAH setups.

Yes, that makes sense. I wonder if they're less likely to fall into set roles or hold the assumption that they'll probs have kids and step back from the career for a bit. It'd be interesting to see the results for lesbian couples with children.

ThePlatypusAlwaysTriumphs · 14/03/2026 02:36

I disagree. With regards to your OP, my DH does more than his fair share of cooking/ laundry/ housework.
My 18yo ds is at uni and likewise does all his own cooking/ laundry/ housework.
I feel like men who dont have been "allowed " not to
But do feel like the NAMALT/ AMALT has deeper connotations, which do concern me. Misogyny is ugly. Thankfully in our (female dominated) family, it doesn't rear its ugly head, but i believe it is out there

LadyLavenderUrchin · 14/03/2026 10:08

Wow ladies. I feel secondhand embarrassment when I see other women behave this way, @TooBigForMyBoots and @Frequency . You know feminism is based on equality, right? This guy literally said nothing this entire time but that - that we are all equal. And jesus christ isn’t that the truth? But f-ck him because he is manfolk and doesn’t listen. Shame on you, do better and don’t teach your daughters that they are always victims at all times and just simply better than the boys.

Frequency · 14/03/2026 11:02

LadyLavenderUrchin · 14/03/2026 10:08

Wow ladies. I feel secondhand embarrassment when I see other women behave this way, @TooBigForMyBoots and @Frequency . You know feminism is based on equality, right? This guy literally said nothing this entire time but that - that we are all equal. And jesus christ isn’t that the truth? But f-ck him because he is manfolk and doesn’t listen. Shame on you, do better and don’t teach your daughters that they are always victims at all times and just simply better than the boys.

He has spent the entire thread mansplaining and dismissing women's experiences as anecdotes, a concept he does not apply to posts about his own experiences and behaviours.

GaIadriel · 14/03/2026 11:55

LadyLavenderUrchin · 14/03/2026 10:08

Wow ladies. I feel secondhand embarrassment when I see other women behave this way, @TooBigForMyBoots and @Frequency . You know feminism is based on equality, right? This guy literally said nothing this entire time but that - that we are all equal. And jesus christ isn’t that the truth? But f-ck him because he is manfolk and doesn’t listen. Shame on you, do better and don’t teach your daughters that they are always victims at all times and just simply better than the boys.

The issue is that there's a subset of 'feminists' for whom the driving force seems to be using feminism as a vehicle to bash men rather than actually improve things for women - that vehicle would be called The Mystery Misandry Bus. 🤣

I'm reminded of the phenomenon whereby the suicide rate in Ireland apparently went up after the troubles subsided. It's been suggested that it's because some men no longer had anything to fight for. I think for some feminists it's a similar situation.

In reality some of them are probably just lonely/a bit disenfranchised with life. A bit like all the angry jobless men who blame the 'forriners' for taking all the jobs despite not seemingly trying too hard to find gainful employment themselves. Of course they'll never admit this might be the case.

GaIadriel · 14/03/2026 11:57

I think the equivalent of mansplaining is fempecking. 😆😆😆

Alpacajigsaw · 14/03/2026 11:59

If the males I lived with didn’t do laundry they’d be wearing dirty clothes. I’m not here to be a laundry maid for 3 other adults/almost adults.

NoEggs · 14/03/2026 12:16

there's a subset of 'feminists' [sic] for whom the driving force seems to be using feminism as a vehicle to bash men rather than actually improve things for women

It’s possible that these two positions are not mutually exclusive. Throughout the millennia groups have subjugated other groups to further their own cause. ‘Be kind’ is all very well but
when the ‘enemy’ has centuries of society propping them up perhaps, just perhaps,we need to point out their inadequacies in order to promote and get traction for our own strengths.

OP posts:
TooBigForMyBoots · 14/03/2026 12:43

LadyLavenderUrchin · 14/03/2026 10:08

Wow ladies. I feel secondhand embarrassment when I see other women behave this way, @TooBigForMyBoots and @Frequency . You know feminism is based on equality, right? This guy literally said nothing this entire time but that - that we are all equal. And jesus christ isn’t that the truth? But f-ck him because he is manfolk and doesn’t listen. Shame on you, do better and don’t teach your daughters that they are always victims at all times and just simply better than the boys.

I feel 2nd hand embarrassment every time I see the dick panderers and "pick me" women on here.🙈 Thankfully, most women grow out of that stage eventually.

But f-ck him because he is manfolk and doesn’t listen.

I feel the same way about women who don't listen. Equality.😊

LadyLavenderUrchin · 14/03/2026 13:45

Right. one thing is for sure. you converse like a child @TooBigForMyBoots nothing but emotion and spite. Am I not part of the all girls club now? I am clearly missing out. Enjoy hating on men. You are literally thinking you are better the same way those people were thinking who erected the patriarchy. You go, girl.

LadyLavenderUrchin · 14/03/2026 13:48

ok. a guy opens his mouth and it is automatically mansplaining as he is a man. anecdotes dont explain general rules.

TooBigForMyBoots · 14/03/2026 13:59

Right. one thing is for sure. you converse like a child

A 10 year old child perhaps?😉

LadyLavenderUrchin · 14/03/2026 14:12

accurate

GaIadriel · 14/03/2026 19:33

NoEggs · 14/03/2026 12:16

there's a subset of 'feminists' [sic] for whom the driving force seems to be using feminism as a vehicle to bash men rather than actually improve things for women

It’s possible that these two positions are not mutually exclusive. Throughout the millennia groups have subjugated other groups to further their own cause. ‘Be kind’ is all very well but
when the ‘enemy’ has centuries of society propping them up perhaps, just perhaps,we need to point out their inadequacies in order to promote and get traction for our own strengths.

But men aren't the enemy - I appreciate you're not saying that yourself as you put it in apostrophes.

Generally, things have improved the most when we've worked with men as a team. That's usually the case with societal things. Most historians seem to think that it was as much the war effort as the antics of the suffragettes that brought about the vote.

The common man didn't have the vote prior to the war, and with women having played as important a part as they did it seemed wrong not to include them - bear in mind that the suffragettes were initially campaigning for property owning women to have the vote like their male counterparts, not for their housemaids to as well.

Fact is, for all the posturing we do need men to be onboard with equality. If they flat out refused it'd probs resemble the situation we see in places like Afghanistan. Unlike men we'll never be able to win a coup based on force.

Some feminists don't like this because they see it as admitting defeat, but the goal isn't to be fighting against men or 'win' some kind of battle. The goal is to hold mutual respect and understanding, to co-exist peacefully alongside them. If you don't believe this then you're pretty close in mentality to a sexist man.

Carla786 · 14/03/2026 20:31

GaIadriel · 14/03/2026 19:33

But men aren't the enemy - I appreciate you're not saying that yourself as you put it in apostrophes.

Generally, things have improved the most when we've worked with men as a team. That's usually the case with societal things. Most historians seem to think that it was as much the war effort as the antics of the suffragettes that brought about the vote.

The common man didn't have the vote prior to the war, and with women having played as important a part as they did it seemed wrong not to include them - bear in mind that the suffragettes were initially campaigning for property owning women to have the vote like their male counterparts, not for their housemaids to as well.

Fact is, for all the posturing we do need men to be onboard with equality. If they flat out refused it'd probs resemble the situation we see in places like Afghanistan. Unlike men we'll never be able to win a coup based on force.

Some feminists don't like this because they see it as admitting defeat, but the goal isn't to be fighting against men or 'win' some kind of battle. The goal is to hold mutual respect and understanding, to co-exist peacefully alongside them. If you don't believe this then you're pretty close in mentality to a sexist man.

On this : ' The common man didn't have the vote prior to the war' - that isn't fully accurate, but definitely any who didn't own property was excluded.

BBC Bitesize has a good summary :

1866, all voters had to be male adults over 21 years of age. The right to vote was still based upon a property qualification.

By the early 1860s around 1.43 million could vote out of a total population of 30 million.

In 1867, the Conservative government introduced the Parliamentary Reform Act. This increased the electorate to almost 2.5 million.

The most important change was the granting of the vote to occupiers in the boroughs (people who rented properties rather than owning them) and, as a result, the electorate in some of the newer towns in England and Scotland increased dramatically.

However, the Act did not alter the balance of political power in Britain. The middle classes still dominated the electorate in both towns and boroughs.

Third Reform Act, 1884
By the 1880s it was widely recognised that voters in counties deserved the same political rights as those in the boroughs. This led to the 1884 Parliamentary Reform Act:
the Act created a uniform franchise for both county and borough
it applied to the United Kingdom as a whole
it enfranchised a significant number of voters
approximately two in three men now had the vote - almost 18 per cent of the total population
however, plural voting was permitted (whereby a man could have more than one vote in certain circumstances)
Representation of the People Act, 1918
In June 1917 the House of Commons passed the Representation of the People Act. The following year the Act was approved by the House of Lords and became law.
By 1918 there was a general feeling that the horrors of World War One had to be for something positive. Many men returning from war would not be able to vote under the 1884 laws.
The Representation of the People Act gave the vote to all men over 21, whether they owned property or not.
The act gave the vote to women over the age of 30 who met a property qualification, or whose husband did. This represented 8.5 million women - two thirds of the total population of women in the UK.'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z9hnn39/revision/2

It should be remembered that the suffragists led by Millicent Fawcett probably did a huge amount to get the vote too, it's not a binary 'Pankhursts or WW1 caused it' story

. And while the Pankhurst elite were shamefully snobby, they weren't the only suffragettes. Sylvia Pankhurst was strongly pro-working women's votes, and plenty of suffragettes were working-class themselves, especially in mill towns where women had more independence. Eliza & Dora Thewlis, Lillian Lenton, Annie & Jessie Kenney, Hannah Mitchell are among many working-class women who were suffragettes. Jill Liddington's books are great on this.

https://www.virago.co.uk/titles/jill-liddington/rebel-girls/9780349007816/

https://www.amazon.co.uk/One-Hand-Tied-Behind-Us/dp/1854891111

Extension of the franchise - How democratic Britain became - 1867 - 1928 - Higher History Revision - BBC Bitesize

For Higher History, revise the changes to the electorate, representation and parliament that made Britain more democratic between 1867 and 1928.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z9hnn39/revision/2

TooBigForMyBoots · 14/03/2026 20:32

Fact is, for all the posturing we do need men to be onboard with equality.

I sort of agree. Unfortunately those accustomed to privilege see equality as oppression. Suffragettes and other women have always got stuck in in wartime, done their bit, and more. When the war ended, their accomplishments were buried and minimised and men didn't stand alongside their rightful claim that they were equal.

On the contrary, men publicly opposed the struggle for equality. Many still do.