To think in the past people had more stoicism and resilience and it’s a shame we’ve sort of lost that?

[Carrotted]

Towards the end of the battle of Waterloo, the Marquess of Uxbridge, a British general, had part of his leg blown off by a French cannonball. He was sitting atop his horse next to the Duke of Wellington, to whom he turned and said “By God, sir, I think I’ve lost my leg”, to which the Duke of Wellington replied “By God, sir, so you have”. He then went to the field hospital where the remaining leg was amputated without anaesthetic, while he joked with the surgeons.

Thats one individual and the story is probably elaborated for effect, but AIBU to think people in previous generations tended to be more stoic in the face of adversity. To have a “get on with it” attitude?

There are obvious downsides to that attitude, but it can have lots of benefits to have that approach to life.

AIBU?

I don’t disagree but I can see both sides of the coin…

I think there’s a danger that if you encourage people to be more stoic, they will not open up when they really need to. We need to consider things like suicide rates when we’re just getting the message out there, encouraging men particularly, to talk through their problems with others.

Having said that, teaching resilience should start early and be taught appropriately. Resilience is actually in the schools’ PSHE curriculums and yet we hear about school sports days where children take part in events but there are no winners. One does not support the other in my mind.

I worked in a school where one class teacher didn’t play ANY games in her class, whether as part of learning or for fun. Her argument was that she had too many children who got angry or upset if they didn’t win. Surely those are the children that need to build resilience and learn good sportsmanship though! Don’t get me wrong, in my class, there was still many a wobbly lip but by the end of the school year, everyone would shake hands at the end, acknowledging a good game and congratulate the winner. The winner was also taught to be gracious in the win. It was tough at the beginning of the year and there was often more than one upset child after each game, but gradually they came to understand that they couldn’t win every time. I was then able to extend that learning, when appropriate, showing them that resilience was a transferable skill to the rest of life (eg. when only one pupil could be chosen for the coveted part in the school assembly etc.)

You need to learn a little about history OP. There were lots of people throughout history who didn’t behave this way, why do you think these moments get mentioned? And there are lots of people today who do behave like this. Lots of people go through life dealing with shit and just getting on with it, but you don’t hear about them. This idea that we’re weak now because we stand up for ourselves and don’t send our kids up chimneys or laugh about being blown to bits is ridiculous. And you have heard that story BECAUSE it is so unusual. Most people in those wars did horrible deaths. People cried, people were afraid, people ran away.

To think that everyone was saying ‘Tally Ho, what what’ whilst being shit shows a lack of understanding of history. Read about it, read the sadness, the fear, the shame and the horror, people weren’t more ‘manly’ then, and nor should they have to be.

Yes, because that's how all returning soldiers coped. They didn't quietly suffer, didn't have horrific nightmares, didn't wet the bed in fright most nights due to recurring nightmares, didn't slowly go mad at the memory of the horrors they endured, didn't eventually take their own lives due to the pain and horror of what they'd seen and done. No, you've got them being violent to children..
Shame on you...

@cleaningandclearing You should read about the 306. The 306 who were shot for things like fear during WW1. It was horrendous. Sometimes teenagers shot for being scared during a war. Shot at dawn by their friends who would be sick and cry and point their guns away, not wanting to be the one who pulled the trigger. There is a lot of information about it out there, you should read it and learn about how awful your closing comment about that man being shot is. Don’t glorify that shit. All those who were shot for falling asleep due to exhaustion or refining to fight or running from fear were pardoned and rightly so. Maybe you should read the testimonies of their fellow soldiers and their families, of the hurt and the loss and the shame. so you can understand what the true impact of that was instead of suggesting you wish it were so today.

ETA:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/aug/16/military.samjones

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/apr/24/country-diary-pte-archibald-browne-is-remembered

Two different types of Guardian articles on the subject. Read their stories then come back and repeat these ridiculous comments.

Speak for yourself. Im resilient and stoic af.

However I did read somewhere where the rate of male suicide is higher now that at any time in the past. So the " soft" life we have isn't helping much is it?

YABU

That story reminds me of the letter my husband's family have, sent by the UK government during the Crimean War, that says that Jonny died from a cannonball to the guts "with a hoorah for England on his lips". It's utter propaganda bullshit.

Life involves suffering and people have always discussed and tried to teach others how to handle it for as long as we've been around. The Stoics did a lot of that, that's why we now call it stoicism, but so has nearly all worldview philosophies and religions. They've all been teaching different causes and different ways to view and handle suffering because not handling it well is pretty much a human universal. We all struggle sometimes, that's human. There may be some new options these days with technology and new drugs, but they're all new twists on old tales.

I mean, the song Mother's Little Helper came out in 1966 about how those raising kids that now may get called boomers were finding it a struggle and using a little yellow pill to cope. Those people, popping pills to cope, who we now pretend were all completely stoic because they had to be with living through WW2 bombings. Those lies do nothing but erase their pain and deny even an ear to any suffering people have today.

It isn't a shame people aren't more 'stoic', it's a shame we keep up these lies, erasing the humanity and pretending the myths of the brazen individual who 'got on with it' alone and without stumble is a real goal we should try to achieve. That doesn't even line up with stoic writings, which are full of writings on friendships, on helping each other and how it is very rational to ask for and accept help. help. Stoic writings are on accepting pain and suffering, not denying it with a stiff upper lip. They write on letting go of things outside of one's control, not stubbornly pushing through to 'get on with it'. Plenty of people are far more stoic than the unhealthy pop culture images or bizarre military tales of what being stoic should look like.

It was actually back in the 80s that we had the highest rate, I believe.

Thing is, this attitude hasn’t changed. Today, men are being subjected to red pill bullshit and Andrew Tate and friends who are still pushing the narrative that men can’t be emotional or vulnerable. So I don’t think that for many men things are different. We won’t know the effect until our attitude towards men’s vulnerability TRULY changes, and if you read this thread back, it very clearly hasn’t.

ETA consistent records only began 40 years ago, so it’s hard to say. The peak was in the late 80s but 2023 was the highest sine 1999. So we can’t say that male suicide rates are the highest right now.

Even so in the 80s wasnt when people were returning from war etc

And 2023 woukd make the suicide rates the highest this century. Again no world wars or starvation that year.

Yes but we don’t have statistics prior to 1981. So we don’t know if the suicide rates then were higher or not, we have only got proper, consistent records from 1981 onwards so we can only judge from then. And th late 80s were the highest. Records were not consistently kept prior to then and no one has done the work to find out if suicide rates after the war were higher or not.

So you cannot say that suicide rates are higher now, we simply do not know what the suicide rates were during difficult times prior to 1981.

I said i think i read it. Maybe what i read was that were the highest this century. Even so i cannot see what was so awful in the country that all these people commited suicide in 2023.

Not this shit again. Had enough of it during the pandemic.

Actually yes. Life was harder for people 70/80 years ago and before that. Losing husbands, fathers, sons in the wars, women had no rights and no independence, no birth control, having to pay for healthcare before 1948, children literally going under, the infant mortality rate was high, children from poor families had little or no education. Somehow that makes not being able to get a mortgage sound like a breeze!

So the highest in 24 years - that’s not really much to go on to suggest that men are committing suicide at the highest rates ever, is it? I don’t know what happened in 2023, I don’t know what happened in 1988. But we only have 40 years of consistent data, so the data is so small so we cannot decidedly say anything from that. 2023 being a peak in 24 years isn’t saying much at all.

Interestingly, the data we have after the Second World War is small and patchy, so it’s hard to say what happened there either, but suicide during the wars decreased. But maybe suicide doesn’t equate to major life events that affect whole countries.

Okay, so are just pretending The Troubles in Northern Ireland weren't ongoing, and The Falklands War didn't occurr?

Falklands was 1982 years before the late 80s. And the troubles in NI didnt really afffect people outside of it. And had been going since late 60s

So im not pretending they didnt exist

So people were being tougher because they had to then.? As many peole have stared already

Bring up people in "softly softly lifestyle" and they become weak

What? No, what a reach! Soldiers also committed suicide, on the front line and off of it. Some seem to be claiming it is due to social cohesion (sense of purpose, lower unemployment) however maybe it was because some people who may have committed suicide were instead dead from war? We don’t know. But you can’t say it’s because they were stronger because suicide rates before and directly after the war were higher. So your theory makes NO sense

Stop trying to manipulate this to fit your weird narrative. You do not have the information to make this claim. We cannot guarantee suicide rates now are higher than in say, 1882 due to a multitude of things, such as a lack of statistical evidence and a poorer understanding of forensic evidence.

Incidentally, have you joined the forces and volunteered to go to the front line to stop you being weak? Or are you sitting at home on your phone on your comfy sofa and denigrating others? You must be very weak indeed in your own mind.

Hundreds of people were murdered and thousands maimed in mainland Britain during The Troubles, and Falklands veterans are feeling the effects of that war decades later.

Very cynical there are lots of examples of extreme bravery and stoicism. There was a soldier that fought in the boar war who got shot in the same eye twice, tore his own 2 fingers off when blown up had his arm amputated, shot in the leg face hip, ankle and ear. volunteered for ww1 survived 2 plane crashes swam with 1 arm in the sea saving another soldier, was a prison of war kept trying to escape. Was awarded the Victoria Cross for bravery. Loads of examples of bravery if you look for them.

But there are also lots of examples of these sorts of things today, that guy who was mauled by a bear and kept going, those who have tackled terrorists, the man who recently died trying to rescue a drowning dog, the man who sawed his own arm off to escape the rock fall - there have also been people who haven’t been able to do such things throughout history. It annoys me when others say these people existed in history because humans were braver or more stoic in the past. There were scared people throughout history, anxious people, lazy people etc. and today there are also brave people who do amazing things, but they’re amazing BECAUSE they’re unusual, most of us are the same ‘weak’ people that others on this thread are attacking. That’s humans.

Hundreds of people? I can't remember that happening. In the 80s . The odd bomb scare etc and people calling us kids ira lovers as we were that the Catholic scholl

Lol. I don't think they'd want me in the forces tbh. Wouldn't pas the medical. But my daughter's dad , my ex husband, may DD and father/ Uncle were all in the forces

Guess you’re just a ‘weak’ person if you can’t pass the medical and get in, eh?

Except I’m guessing that you aren’t. And neither are most other people who you have accused of being so. Weak people are those who look down on and judge others who have done nothing wrong. Oh wait, you are then.

And FWIW, I don’t think people who die by suicide are ‘weak’, as you suggested. And there are statistics available for all the deaths in the 80s due to the troubles - there were nearly 1500. A little reading would probably open your mind

Throughout The Troubles the Provisional IRA and other splinter groups carried out thousands of attacks in mainland Britain.

Edit: Approximately 175 people died, and 10,000 were injured.