Reform aren't a proper political party - why are we pretending they are?

[Slightyamusedandsilly]

Farage isn't a real political leader. He's a hype 'em up, sound bite merchant. When he was an MEP he rarely bothered to attend. He just wants the kudos without any desire or ability to do the actual work.

The councils run by them are chaos, having increased council tax massively despite promises to the contrary.

Reform is just the next iteration of the National Front, BNP, English Defence League. Farage is no better than Nick Griffin.

Your post listed things that most reasonable people would not consider a success. That's what I was pointing out. And yes I can't think of many other successes, so do list if you can yourself?

No a Reform MEP will not be as influential as someone like Peter Mandelson. Or have access to the state secrets Peter Mandelson did. Obviously. What evidence do you have that Farage was involved other than your prejudice?

Having a record budget surplus is quite positive. Unless you're a Reform fan, in which case anything good that happens under Labour is coincidence or due to the last government, and anything bad is 100% Labour's fault.

Nailing everyone for tax would do that. And creating a fear of a cgt rise meant everyone sold assets now to pay cgt on current rates. That's our money. Not "growth".

So we wait to see what its spent on. Welfare or defence or cutting tax. I bet welfare. But lets wait and see.

Are you a Labour voter? A biological woman? No such thing. A Jew? Your racist complaints aren't legitimate.

So much black and white thinking...

Labour have not proposed any changes to equality legislation. Reform have. That's enough for me.

I'm also in favour of more protection for renters, renationalising failing rail franchises. improved workers' rights, increased deportations of people who no longer have the right to be in the UK, more renewable energy. And that budget surplus feels pretty good too.

And having met both transwomen and men, I know which ones cause me more concern in terms of my personal safety.

I don't want them to cut tax except if it will benefit the very lowest paid. The last lot's unaffordable and uncosted NI cut caused quite enough trouble.

They can do a lot of damage in 4 years.

Blank and white thinking? Seriously!!! You've trail blazed that yourself.

Not at all. Nigel Farage has said that he is perfectly OK with discriminatory practices in recruitment, including on the basis of skin colour. It doesn't get more black and white than that.

Meanwhile Reform's polling has pretty much flatlined and they're starting to lose council elections. They're fighting online with Advance and Restore aka Fascism 2.1 and 2.2, which is all good.

It's a cool 3 years to the next GE, so plenty of time for them to show themselves up for what they are - incompetent, corrupt and lazy. Remind me, how many times has Farage bothered to turn up in Parliament? If that's what you want to vote for, fill your boots.

I really am happy to wait for Labour to keep imploding. While their fans are busy justifying a pitiful government, the right wing factions can carry on running rings around them.

I’m not sure Labour are doing well on council elections. They seem to be losing votes to the other parties each time.

Ok, so let's say reform get in, get rid of the equality act and employee rights and then later someone else gets in (maybe the greens, progressive left, right who cares). And THEY decide they are going to push ahead with attacks on women's rights by putting trans rights centre stage. You can't fight back with court cases/employment legislation the way TERFy women have so far because Reform got rid of the legislation.

Or if you are Jewish and support Israel but your employer sacks you for being a Zionist. Or you have to resign because they make working there unbearable/call you a Nazi etc. No tribunal for you, it's perfectly legal to fire at will/use robust language in the workplace. You have to suck it up.

Or if you are a Christian and banned from wearing a small cross to work because it "makes people uncomfortable". In the past people could take it up with the ECHR (actual case on this). But we left that so suck it up.

Or white/straight/a man whose company has enacted American style "positive discrimination" and tell you not to expect any promotions because they are trying to advance minorities. Now you can take them to court (and a decent HR will know this and stop it happening in the first place). If employment rights are repealed you can't.

It's kind of telling that people will complain that "X group" are the most discriminated against now or wax lyrical about terrible cases of woke gone mad. But then be really enthusiastic about removing the laws protecting everyone against discrimination. If they really thought white/straight/men were the most hated they wouldn't be so quick to do so.

I never said Labour were doing well. I just pointed out that Reform have also not been doing well lately.

You seem to think I worship this government - I don't. They've done some good things, but their comms are terrible and their infighting is worse. Fortunately for them, the right is taking infighting to a whole new level.

I'd like to see proper PR in the UK and some genuinely new centrist movements. Of course that would mean the likes of Reform having more representation but I'm actually fine with that - they're so bloody useless that they'd burn themselves out uin short order. Warwick, council, anyone?

Exactly - the Equality act protects everyone. That is what the Reform worshippers don't want to see.

Those current laws are flawed. If they were applied equally, great but they are not. That's because of the political regime of the day dictating that. We are never all going to be protected because one size doesn't BUT should fit all.

In what way are they flawed exactly? How are they not applied equally?

Idk about PR. On one level it would take the jeopardy out for people ie that feeling that a party with very low support can have all the mandate.

That’s getting more pronounced as the number of parties increase.

Oth it’d still likely be a mess as the why people feel there’s a big divergence in what people want.

Overall though the two party system is being strained. Who would recommend changing it idk. The party in tends to like having all the power even if voting representation is low.

And yet, there have been numerous cases of women taking employers to court for either dismissing them for having gender critical beliefs or for putting them into unfair situations (sharing changing rooms with men etc) and winning. In a lot of those cases the opposite side have been shown up to be fools. Sunlight. Many women on the FWS board have discussed contributing to such legal actions. The cases have at times forced a change in how the law is applied in some circumstances. Just look back through some of the long running threads.

It beggars belief that anyone who thinks this is a good thing would support repelling the legislation that makes bringing such cases possible.

The "political regime of the day" isn't actually able to dictate how the courts apply the law. That's part of the joys of an independent judiciary. And is why Labour and the Conservative government have both faced embarrassing checks on their political projects. And why, despite political support for groups like Stonewall they kept getting their arses handed to them when people were prepared to actually go to court.

To add Reform don’t necessarily do better with PR given polling. If they tip at a certain point they do as well as Labour from FPTP.

Thing is that there is a huge divergence in what people want, not helped by the level of social and economic inequality in the UK. There just isn't an easy fix.

I probably worded that wrong. I wonder if its more about the room for loopholes in the application of the law that can so sometimes seem more heavily laden on one side. I'm just pondering but thanks for batting my point back. It's given me pause for thought.

Good post.

I suppose European countries have the political range too, I find it hard to envisage policy creation here under PR.

I do think whether it’s Labour last time or Reform next time getting a landslide with a low vote percentage will be grabbed and kept by any party.

European countries absolutely do have political range. If you look at the Netherlands (where I'm from) there are several parties clustering around the centre as well as some on the left and right. That is also alongside several parties which operate along religious lines (only one Muslim interest though, the rest are various shades of Christian. One is so extremely conservative they do not allow women to stand as MPs and shut down their website on Sundays). They consistently get a handful of seats but there's a ceiling, so they are clearly representing someone.

Of course. I wrote a strong-worded but civil post earlier (no profanities, just spelled this idea out a little more, and to no particular poster) and it's been hidden by MNHQ for the last 10 hours. I really wonder what triggered that review frankly. Is it a case of obeying in advance? That has been affecting many US institutions for the past year. And I wonder if, with the BBC being sued for billions next year, all UK media companies including social media forums, are now quaking in their boots. That would be a very depressing thought.